Planet Rugby Forum

Fat Old Git wrote:

jambanja wrote:

Ted. wrote:

Fat Old Git wrote:

sonic_attack wrote:Think Gatland might have an argument in unleashing a whinge in this one. That knock on try was atrocious and at a pivotal point of the game.

It was indeed. Although they could easily have been in that position with a man down for the push in the air that wasn't a push, so the strange calls weren't all one way.

That was very poor from Weber. You would think that there should be something from the Citing Commissioner because that was pretty close to a red. Mind you, that situation would not have arisen if O'Keefe, the gibbering fool and his TMO, obviously his twin, had got the previous try ruling correct. So your craven whataboutry is completely fallacious.

I thought Weber was going to spend 10 mins for that and was really surprised he didn’t. So yes I wouldn’t be too surprised if the Citing Comm did want another look

It was quite bizarre.

What was the previous try ruling they got wrong? The order of events are a bit jumbled in my head this morning.

The knock on they went on to award as a try

Just watched the replay and the Reece try - hell, even when Reece scored he threw the ball away as he knew it wasn't a try.

Didn't really affect the result though I reckon. We were buggered at that stage.

Jam, that's the try that sparked the discussion, but Ted has referred to an earlier decision from before the interesting"not a push" call.

Perhaps the one where the Chiefs were awarded a scrum on the line even though it probably should have been a penalty, or perhaps even a penalty try to the Crusaders?

The Chiefs didn't play poorly in this match. Yes some people will look at their 0-7 record and say that they are a weak team, but I think this Chiefs team is better than that record suggests. And in a normal SR season they probably don't lose to any team Australian or South African teams for the year and finish mid/upper mid table.

The Chiefs came to play, and had the ascendancy at the breakdown. Lachlan Boshier is the finest exponent of the breakdown turnover in NZ right now, and was strong in all facets. He must surely be in the reckoning for higher honours this year? Although I'm not sure his relatively small frame could be accommodated in a backrow that also feature Savea and Cane. Speaking of Cane, he was his usual busy self last night at the breakdown. I do worry about his passive leadership style and how this will translate at test level. The contrast between his captaincy and Sam Whitelock's leadership in the final quarter of the match was like night and day.

Pita Gus Sowakula has been great all season, and I thought he was the standout player of the match. His ability to make metres off the back of the scrum is awesome. He made lots of strong tackles and alongside his fellow Chiefs backrowers her terrorized the Crusaders at the breakdown.

In terms of negatives, Damien McKenzie gets lots of praise on this forum but he continues to be the most selfish player in NZ rugby. He robs his outside men of time and space and constantly crabbing across the field. His kicking game was aimless at times, and both Tom Sanders and Leicester Fainga’anuku speed-humped him to score tries. You really need your fullback to do better in both those situations, and the 'brave small man' excuses don't cut it.

This was the best I have seen the Crusaders pack pay all the season, which was very surprising given the players who were unavailable for this fixture. Yes at times they were bested at the breakdown by a lethal Chiefs backrow, but overall the pack was superior to the Chiefs and that was where the match was won. Their set piece was superb, their lineout was humming all night and they had the ascendancy at scrum time, winning multiple scrum penalties. Their driving maul to score a try at the end of the first half was the best driving maul I've seen this year . When the Crusaders maul is working you just know that their pack is switched on. Overall unheralded forwards like Tom Sanders (he ran for more metres in that try than for the rest of his career combined), Sione Havili and George Bower all had their best ever SR matches, and Andrew Makalio brought lots of impact off the bench. The senior duo in the pack, Sam Whitelock and Codie Taylor, were exceptional. They brought intensity, leadership and accuracy to this match. I thought this was the best performance by Sam Whitelock in a couple of years. He looked pumped and he looked angry, and he played extremely well. Special mention also to Mike Ala'alatoa, he doesn't get much mention in the press but his work at scrum time and in general play had been great all year and he bested his more highly credentialed opposite number Nepo Laulala.

Whilst the match was won by the hard working Crusaders pack, it was their back division that ensured that there was a 5-1 try count. Richie Mo'unga put on another general play master-class, athough he was inaccurate off the tee. His ability to create time and space for his outside men is unmatched. His preparedness to run the ball is also a key feature. It means that defenders cannot just drift off him, which creates more room for his backline. He looks to be in a great space now and full of confidence and I'm very hopeful that he gets the opportunity to cement his position in the AB team over the ensuring RWC cycle.

Sevu Reece, George Bridge and Will Jordan are the most dangerous back 3 in world rugby right now. They bring speed, agility, accuracy and an adventurous attacking mindset to every contest. George Bridge is much maligned on this forum, but he shows week, week out that he's a class act. His turn of pace is exceptional, and his chase and turn on Shaun Stevenson was a try saving effort. Sevu Reece brings the kind of energy and enthusiasm that you wish you could bottle, and Will Jordan just looks to be an all-round class act.

Overall it was an entertaining match to watch. The Chiefs didn't play badly at all and deserve plenty of credit. It was great to see the crowd honouring both Aaron Cruden and Sam Whitelock on their milestone matches, two legends of the game. And we even had a streaker, what a night!

Dan54. wrote:Another thing I noticed in the game yesterday with Mounga, we all know how good his running game is, but I actually think his passing is just getting better all the time, f*** me he puts players into space at times.

He's is very creative for other players, and that's why he is such a standout. You get the impression that he enjoys creating line breaks or tries for his teammates as much as making a good run or scoring a try himself.

Enjoyed the game but lost heart after the Reece try - indicative of Chiefs season and to me showed they were never going to win.

On the other crucial moments:
- Weber should have got yellow, but Reece was also being a cnut (stopping Chiefs from taking quick throw). it was because of this in my view Weber got away with one.
- saders prop came through ruck and kicked the ball - you can’t do that - onside but can’t kick it forwards as was still in the ruck, should have been penalty or card (that prop has got great hands)
- initially I thought Cruden got left leg back behind try line before sterling the ball (hence not in from side) - on second view not- yellow card against Cruden

Onya Crusaders.....solid win based on good decisions......and a bit of luck. Best try for me was the Fainga'anuku try set up by Mounga and Makalio.....looked simple but was subtle in its excellence drawing players and running support lines.

Best comment of the night was Crusaders man on the sideline, Andrew Goodman, with an almost straight face, when asked about Reece's try siad: "I didn't see it really....I was in the huddle....I have a look at it on the tape later!" Good man!

Ali's Choice wrote:

Dan54. wrote:Another thing I noticed in the game yesterday with Mounga, we all know how good his running game is, but I actually think his passing is just getting better all the time, f*** me he puts players into space at times.

He's is very creative for other players, and that's why he is such a standout. You get the impression that he enjoys creating line breaks or tries for his teammates as much as making a good run or scoring a try himself.

Richie's been phenomenal the last few games.

My only observation on this game is that Sam Whitelock is the best Captain in NZ. The bloke oozes leadership and unlike Cane seems to have the refs ear, where as Cane is told to just fudge off with his whinging.

Foster...

Watching the highlights and just saw "the incident"...Chiefs and their fans have a right to feel aggrieved...

trapper wrote:My only observation on this game is that Sam Whitelock is the best Captain in NZ. The bloke oozes leadership and unlike Cane seems to have the refs ear, where as Cane is told to just fudge off with his whinging.

Foster...

Yeah it's a real shame that Whitelock isn't going to be leading the AB's into the future. His record as a captain is brilliant.

Ali's Choice

Do you reckon there is any chance at all of Foster changing his mind on the AB captaincy?

Ali's Choice wrote:

Dan54. wrote:Another thing I noticed in the game yesterday with Mounga, we all know how good his running game is, but I actually think his passing is just getting better all the time, f*** me he puts players into space at times.

He's is very creative for other players, and that's why he is such a standout. You get the impression that he enjoys creating line breaks or tries for his teammates as much as making a good run or scoring a try himself.

Yep just some of the passes he is throwing, there was one he threw left to right yesterday to Sevu Reece, I would argue only Nugget Smith would of matched it, as he the other one who leaves me gobsmacked with some of his passing.

Dan54. wrote:

Ali's Choice wrote:

Dan54. wrote:Another thing I noticed in the game yesterday with Mounga, we all know how good his running game is, but I actually think his passing is just getting better all the time, f*** me he puts players into space at times.

He's is very creative for other players, and that's why he is such a standout. You get the impression that he enjoys creating line breaks or tries for his teammates as much as making a good run or scoring a try himself.

Yep just some of the passes he is throwing, there was one he threw left to right yesterday to Sevu Reece, I would argue only Nugget Smith would of matched it, as he the other one who leaves me gobsmacked with some of his passing.

He seems to be developing with each game and is a joy to watch.

Kiwias wrote:Ali's Choice

Do you reckon there is any chance at all of Foster changing his mind on the AB captaincy?

No chance in hell. Foster is a graduate of the Steve Hansen 'never admit you're wrong' school for coaches.

Ali's Choice wrote:

Kiwias wrote:Ali's Choice

Do you reckon there is any chance at all of Foster changing his mind on the AB captaincy?

No chance in hell. Foster is a graduate of the Steve Hansen 'never admit you're wrong' school for coaches.

I pretty much figured that.

So looking at the table, if the Crusaders win next week in CHCH, even without a BP, they win the title?

The knock on try is the only incident being focused on by the northern based news media it would seem. None of the others were of interest it would seem.

Fat Old Git wrote:The knock on try is the only incident being focused on by the northern based news media it would seem. None of the others were of interest it would seem.

Crusaders winning is far too common to be newsworthy.

Ali's Choice wrote:So looking at the table, if the Crusaders win next week in CHCH, even without a BP, they win the title

Fixed

Ali's Choice wrote:So looking at the table, if the Crusaders win next week in CHCH, even without a BP, they win the title?

Yep, we needed the Chiefs to produce an upset last night or the Blues to prevail over the Hurricanes to take the tournament to a potential decider in the final match at Eden Park.

Our only hope now is the for the Highlanders to produce a miracle in Christchurch next week.

Enzedder wrote:Just watched the replay and the Reece try - hell, even when Reece scored he threw the ball away as he knew it wasn't a try.

Didn't really affect the result though I reckon. We were buggered at that stage.

Disagree.

The "knock on" try won it for the Crusaders. If the game had remained tight, you can't say that they'd have scored the last try, or indeed how the match would have finished.

That's as bad a ref decision as I've seen, certainly in a pro game.

What is it with Cruden and McKenzie unable to hit touch ? And surely you have to jump from within the field of play to stop a ball going into touch ?

camroc1 wrote:

Enzedder wrote:Just watched the replay and the Reece try - hell, even when Reece scored he threw the ball away as he knew it wasn't a try.

Didn't really affect the result though I reckon. We were buggered at that stage.

Disagree.

The "knock on" try won it for the Crusaders. If the game had remained tight, you can't say that they'd have scored the last try, or indeed how the match would have finished.

That's as bad a ref decision as I've seen, certainly in a pro game.

What is it with Cruden and McKenzie unable to hit touch ? And surely you have to jump from within the field of play to stop a ball going into touch ?

I've never rated Cruden as a test five eighth. He's a talented player and goes well at Super level, but I've always found his shallow kicking game hampers the All Blacks.

The last gasp win against Ireland in Dublin a few years ago will forever be his finest hour.

camroc1 wrote:And surely you have to jump from within the field of play to stop a ball going into touch ?

That's a global WR law mate. Gotta say i'm not a fan, but then again I'm not a fan of a number of laws.

jdogscoop wrote:

camroc1 wrote:

Enzedder wrote:Just watched the replay and the Reece try - hell, even when Reece scored he threw the ball away as he knew it wasn't a try.

Didn't really affect the result though I reckon. We were buggered at that stage.

Disagree.

The "knock on" try won it for the Crusaders. If the game had remained tight, you can't say that they'd have scored the last try, or indeed how the match would have finished.

That's as bad a ref decision as I've seen, certainly in a pro game.

What is it with Cruden and McKenzie unable to hit touch ? And surely you have to jump from within the field of play to stop a ball going into touch ?

I've never rated Cruden as a test five eighth. He's a talented player and goes well at Super level, but I've always found his shallow kicking game hampers the All Blacks.

The last gasp win against Ireland in Dublin a few years ago will forever be his finest hour.

You're a very harsh critic of any five eight other than DC and Mounga aren't you.

He played very well in the 2011 RWC Semi Final win over the Wallabies after being called in at the 11th hour. That drop goal he slotted was superb and summed up the attitude of the team on that night.

He was a very good All Black first five. Izzy Dagg covered the long punts when Cruden started.

In some good news going forward for the Highlanders match on Sunday it sounds as though Moody & Ennor will be back. Douglas may make the final round against the Blues.

camroc1 wrote:

Enzedder wrote:Just watched the replay and the Reece try - hell, even when Reece scored he threw the ball away as he knew it wasn't a try.

Didn't really affect the result though I reckon. We were buggered at that stage.

Disagree.

The "knock on" try won it for the Crusaders. If the game had remained tight, you can't say that they'd have scored the last try, or indeed how the match would have finished.

That's as bad a ref decision as I've seen, certainly in a pro game.

What is it with Cruden and McKenzie unable to hit touch ? And surely you have to jump from within the field of play to stop a ball going into touch ?

If the ref had gotten some other decision right, including in the lead up to that try and might not have remained tight either. Chiefs could easily have been a man down facing a Crusaders line out on their goal line if the ref had decided the non-push was foul play. There are a lot's of what if's.

JPNZ wrote:In some good news going forward for the Highlanders it sounds as though Moody & Ennor will be back. Douglas may make the final round against the Blues.

jambanja wrote:

Fat Old Git wrote: What was the previous try ruling they got wrong? The order of events are a bit jumbled in my head this morning.

The knock on they went on to award as a try

WRONG!!!!!!

The Weber push was at 58'40" and the Reece try was at 60'20"

booji boy wrote:

jdogscoop wrote:

camroc1 wrote:

Enzedder wrote:Just watched the replay and the Reece try - hell, even when Reece scored he threw the ball away as he knew it wasn't a try.

Didn't really affect the result though I reckon. We were buggered at that stage.

Disagree.

The "knock on" try won it for the Crusaders. If the game had remained tight, you can't say that they'd have scored the last try, or indeed how the match would have finished.

That's as bad a ref decision as I've seen, certainly in a pro game.

What is it with Cruden and McKenzie unable to hit touch ? And surely you have to jump from within the field of play to stop a ball going into touch ?

I've never rated Cruden as a test five eighth. He's a talented player and goes well at Super level, but I've always found his shallow kicking game hampers the All Blacks.

The last gasp win against Ireland in Dublin a few years ago will forever be his finest hour.

You're a very harsh critic of any five eight other than DC and Mounga aren't you.

He played very well in the 2011 RWC Semi Final win over the Wallabies after being called in at the 11th hour. That drop goal he slotted was superb and summed up the attitude of the team on that night.

He was a very good All Black first five. Izzy Dagg covered the long punts when Cruden started.

And Sopoaga.

Interestingly Cruden has been pulling off some longer punts this year, but then again his kicking game was never as short as his detractors like to make out - based on the 2010 Bledisloe when he was injured. I think posters have forgotten that in that dominant run we have in the early teens that he was starting as often as DC was.

I recall Cruden having a shortish punt for maybe a season before it miraculously seemed to disappear? He was never going to match Carter but I always had the impression he worked hard on it and there was definite improvement.

Cruden was a truly world class 10 performing at the highest level from about 2012 to 2014, til sleeping in and injury cost him his international career. He was nailed on for the '15 WC and had he been fit he would've more than kept Carter honest for the starting role.

Since then he's definitely declined and while he can still conduct a backline there is a stark contrast in the dynamic play of another diminutive first five in this competition and himself.

This game sucked to watch, by the way. Really fvckign sucked

Kiwias wrote:

JPNZ wrote:In some good news going forward for the Highlanders it sounds as though Moody & Ennor will be back. Douglas may make the final round against the Blues.

May as well rest Moody to be sure. The Highlanders scrum will go backwards by just reading his name on the team sheet.

Edit: Just saw that the poor bastard lost his father last week - My condolences there.

kiwigreg369 wrote:Enjoyed the game but lost heart after the Reece try - indicative of Chiefs season and to me showed they were never going to win.

On the other crucial moments:
- Weber should have got yellow, but Reece was also being a cnut (stopping Chiefs from taking quick throw). it was because of this in my view Weber got away with one.
- saders prop came through ruck and kicked the ball - you can’t do that - onside but can’t kick it forwards as was still in the ruck, should have been penalty or card (that prop has got great hands)
- initially I thought Cruden got left leg back behind try line before sterling the ball (hence not in from side) - on second view not- yellow card against Cruden

There was a call from another player that you could clearly hear telling Reece to touch again and stop the chance of a quick throw, and I'm pretty sure the ref, as you said, was more on lenient on Webber. He says something like 'he should never have been there'. However to say there was no push was a stretch. Reece was in the wrong but the second offence was the push, and dangerously playing someone in the ear so penalty reverse. Wasn't enough in it for a YC.

After watching the 'no knock-on call it's hard not to agree as he the last touch sends the ball clearly behind him. I can see the arguments of the ball was still travelling forward but I have to agree it wasn't 'clear and obvious' after the last touch so the try has to stand, even if Reece was dubious himself. Great lesson to kids to play the whistle, make sure you go under the bar.

You could hear the refs mentioning that he had tapped it back as they were reviewing it, so I guess their reasoning was that it became a pass at that point even if it didn't go directly to anyone. So backwards out of the hands applied as opposed to just travelling forward.

There was no way that was a pass.

I'm not saying it was or that the interpretation was correct, but you can see how they could interpret it that way.

Yes, but it feels like a lawyers approach if you get my drift.

Wilderbeast wrote:Yes, but it feels like a lawyers approach if you get my drift.

To be expected from a sport that has laws instead of rules.