Was the 2019 loss to ENG actually the worst AB RWC choke?

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Cabbage
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Was the 2019 loss to ENG actually the worst AB RWC choke?

Post by Cabbage »

2007 seems to be the popular choice but on closer examination, NZ were in total control and the French threw the shackles off staged another brilliant typically French comeback. The ABs were up for it - they just got outplayed. Add some Wayne Barnes to the mix and that kind of thing happens.

2019 however was an 80 minute choke, they simply didn't show up. From the start they looked shaky and 'not at it' and it didn't get any better. In every other 'choke' they were at some point competitive in the game but in this loss it was non stop choking from beginning to end.

Too much credit was given to an England side that SA exposed. I think if NZ didn't have the '11 and '15 winner medals to soften the blow their loss to the English would have been called for what it was, the worst AB choke of all time.
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booze
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Re: Was the 2019 loss to ENG actually the worst AB RWC choke

Post by booze »

No. They were not a great side (Hansens selection showed that). And too inconsistent to win 3 big games in a row.
bathrugby35
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Re: Was the 2019 loss to ENG actually the worst AB RWC choke

Post by bathrugby35 »

Underprepared as the quarters were a bit too easy.
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JB1981
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Re: Was the 2019 loss to ENG actually the worst AB RWC choke

Post by JB1981 »

No. Performance had been in decline for some time. If anything was a choke it wasn’t that 80 minutes, it was the prior 12-24 months tactically and selectorially from management.
ChipSpike
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Re: Was the 2019 loss to ENG actually the worst AB RWC choke

Post by ChipSpike »

To choke you've got to be good in the first place. Some tier 1 sides I can think of aren't good enough to choke.
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CrazyIslander
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Re: Was the 2019 loss to ENG actually the worst AB RWC choke

Post by CrazyIslander »

The choke was in the selection. The best 12 in NZ, Ngani Laumape didnt even go. Game breaking ball carriers at 6 - Vaea Fifita and Shannon Frizzell made way for Scott Barrett.
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BlueThunder
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Re: Was the 2019 loss to ENG actually the worst AB RWC choke

Post by BlueThunder »

Just beaten by the better team on the day.

That team was under the least amount of pressure of any All Blacks WC squad ever.
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wamberal
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Re: Was the 2019 loss to ENG actually the worst AB RWC choke

Post by wamberal »

The Poms played the most perfect game of rugby I have ever seen. Just one blemish. Otherwise they looked absolutely unbeatable.
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RandomNavigat0r
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Re: Was the 2019 loss to ENG actually the worst AB RWC choke

Post by RandomNavigat0r »

Had Aaron Smith not box kicked away all the All Blacks ball they may have fired at least one shot. In the end they received a magazine to the chest and still had a full barrel of bullets when they went down.
Jay Cee Gee
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Re: Was the 2019 loss to ENG actually the worst AB RWC choke

Post by Jay Cee Gee »

wamberal wrote:The Poms played the most perfect game of rugby I have ever seen. Just one blemish. Otherwise they looked absolutely unbeatable.
Calm down, that's absurd hyperbole.
akann
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Re: Was the 2019 loss to ENG actually the worst AB RWC choke

Post by akann »

A number of factors. Hansen's shocking game plan (bombs inside the oppo 22) and selections contributed a lot towards the poor performance. He had become stale and should have walked away at the end of 2017. The lack of criticism of him by the media after the RWC annoys me, he had the pathetic NZ media wrapped around his fat little finger. Reiko and Retallick both not being at their best in 2019 was also a big factor, as well as playing almost the perfect game the week before. They couldn't deliver the same intensity level in the semi. Same thing happened in the 2015 semi, but that team had a number of all time greats to see them through.
Eugenius
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Re: Was the 2019 loss to ENG actually the worst AB RWC choke

Post by Eugenius »

Far too much was made of the preparation and performance of the game against Ireland .

Whilst they had had some good results against the AB’s recently they were most definitely on the slide .

England not having to play a potentially dangerous France created the perfect storm .

It was a cracker performance by a perfectly prepared and motivated English team .

But God they were bloody awful the next week in the final .

It’s so hard to get up to peak performance in two games straight .

Better to bumble through like the saffers did against Wales and then ace it .
Last edited by Eugenius on Sun Aug 16, 2020 5:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Enzedder
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Re: Was the 2019 loss to ENG actually the worst AB RWC choke

Post by Enzedder »

Calling it a choke devalues the way England played. They were bloody brilliant - had a game plan and executed it perfectly.

One hit wonders though
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RoscoPColtrain
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Re: Was the 2019 loss to ENG actually the worst AB RWC choke

Post by RoscoPColtrain »

France 2007
France 1999
Daylight
Maybe South Africa 1995

All the rest, the other teams were comfortably better than us.
Wilderbeast
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Re: Was the 2019 loss to ENG actually the worst AB RWC choke

Post by Wilderbeast »

booze wrote:No. They were not a great side (Hansens selection showed that). And too inconsistent to win 3 big games in a row.
There’s been some revisionist bollocks on this site but this is up there.
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Auckman
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Re: Was the 2019 loss to ENG actually the worst AB RWC choke

Post by Auckman »

If the Irish didn't choke in the previous game, the All Blacks wouldn't have choked in the next game. Of course, because the All Blacks choked in the semi-final, it caused England to go onto the mother of all chokes in the Final ...against a team that choked against the All Blacks in pool play.

Je suis All Chokes.
Dan54.
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Re: Was the 2019 loss to ENG actually the worst AB RWC choke

Post by Dan54. »

Enzedder wrote:Calling it a choke devalues the way England played. They were bloody brilliant - had a game plan and executed it perfectly.

One hit wonders though
Agree Enz, some don't know how to give credit to a good team playing bloody well.
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vh5150
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Re: Was the 2019 loss to ENG actually the worst AB RWC choke

Post by vh5150 »

No choke from the ABs. They were beaten up all across the field esp in the front 8. England were utterly superb.
New guy
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Re: Was the 2019 loss to ENG actually the worst AB RWC choke

Post by New guy »

Eugenius wrote:Far too much was made of the preparation and performance of the game against Ireland .

Whilst they had had some good results against the AB’s recently they were most definitely on the slide .

England not having to play a potentially dangerous France created the perfect storm .

It was a cracker performance by a perfectly prepared and motivated English team .

But God they were bloody awful the next week in the final .

It’s so hard to get up to peak performance in two games straight .

Better to bumble through like the saffers did against Wales and then ace it .
Yeah this is a very big point. To get to the semi final England had to beat USA, Tonga, 14 man Argentina and Australia. They deserve a lot of credit for hammering Australia but it's the kind of run in that other fans can only dream of. A massive advantage in a tournament that's reliant on having a deep squad.
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UncleFB
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Re: Was the 2019 loss to ENG actually the worst AB RWC choke

Post by UncleFB »

Enzedder wrote:Calling it a choke devalues the way England played. They were bloody brilliant - had a game plan and executed it perfectly.

One hit wonders though
I don't think it does. But this choke was less of a one off match choke and more of a build up choke from a coach who threw everything that was successful from the past few years out the window in the lead up to the RWC.

Hard to quantify stuff on the field though, Whitelock's stupidity was very chokey, whereas Jordie's stupidity was expected (jumps into his foxhole before Wilderbeast arrives).
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Enzedder
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Re: Was the 2019 loss to ENG actually the worst AB RWC choke

Post by Enzedder »

Ssshhh - some want Whitelock to be ABs captain
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UncleFB
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Re: Was the 2019 loss to ENG actually the worst AB RWC choke

Post by UncleFB »

Enzedder wrote:Ssshhh - some want Whitelock to be ABs captain
I'm hunkering down in the Jordie foxhole already so hopefully it's enough cover.
Wilderbeast
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Re: Was the 2019 loss to ENG actually the worst AB RWC choke

Post by Wilderbeast »

What’s going on here then?
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UncleFB
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Re: Was the 2019 loss to ENG actually the worst AB RWC choke

Post by UncleFB »

Wilderbeast wrote:What’s going on here then?
Nothing, we're just making fun of Sam Whitelock.

Image
Wilderbeast
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Re: Was the 2019 loss to ENG actually the worst AB RWC choke

Post by Wilderbeast »

As you were soldier :thumbup:
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Luciano
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Re: Was the 2019 loss to ENG actually the worst AB RWC choke

Post by Luciano »

Rotten bait thread :x

But I cannot help it :o : the worst was 1999. How on earth could they throw away that advantage? And the backline played like crap, apart from Lomu.

2007 was a combination of factors, including injuries to TWO amazing fly-halves, close refereeing calls, general drama, etc.

2019's team, as other have stated, had issues with selection and strategy. Why they didn't keep the team as close as the one that defeated SA in the same tourney, barring injuries, is something that I will never understand.
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CrazyIslander
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Re: Was the 2019 loss to ENG actually the worst AB RWC choke

Post by CrazyIslander »

2003 has to be up there.
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True Blue
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Re: Was the 2019 loss to ENG actually the worst AB RWC choke

Post by True Blue »

It's great how everytime NZ loses a game it's because of a "choke". Guess we're that good.
Dan54.
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Re: Was the 2019 loss to ENG actually the worst AB RWC choke

Post by Dan54. »

True Blue wrote:It's great how everytime NZ loses a game it's because of a "choke". Guess we're that good.
Was about to say same TB, there are some awful arrogant posters here from NZ who seem to think the only way we can get beaten is if we either choke or play real poorly etc etc, one day they going to wake up , we got some pretty good players but sure not unbeatable.
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Hellraiser
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Re: Was the 2019 loss to ENG actually the worst AB RWC choke

Post by Hellraiser »

Auckman wrote:If the Irish didn't choke in the previous game, the All Blacks wouldn't have choked in the next game. Of course, because the All Blacks choked in the semi-final, it caused England to go onto the mother of all chokes in the Final ...against a team that choked against the All Blacks in pool play.

Je suis All Chokes.

We didn't choke, we'd been crap for 10 months at that stage.
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Flametop
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Re: Was the 2019 loss to ENG actually the worst AB RWC choke

Post by Flametop »

NZ played their final against Ireland the week before.

They gave us way too much respect based on our tournament form
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UncleFB
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Re: Was the 2019 loss to ENG actually the worst AB RWC choke

Post by UncleFB »

Dan54. wrote:
True Blue wrote:It's great how everytime NZ loses a game it's because of a "choke". Guess we're that good.
Was about to say same TB, there are some awful arrogant posters here from NZ who seem to think the only way we can get beaten is if we either choke or play real poorly etc etc, one day they going to wake up , we got some pretty good players but sure not unbeatable.
That's a frikking weird way to look at it Dan.

The "choke" was started by non NZers as a way to give NZ crap.
Eugenius
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Re: Was the 2019 loss to ENG actually the worst AB RWC choke

Post by Eugenius »

Enzedder wrote:Ssshhh - some want Whitelock to be ABs captain

Cause what is currently required is a punchy extremely fragile no 7 with a straight losing record ? 🤔
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Sensible Stephen
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Re: Was the 2019 loss to ENG actually the worst AB RWC choke

Post by Sensible Stephen »

Flametop wrote:NZ played their final against Ireland the week before.

They gave us way too much respect based on our tournament form
Its very similar to 2015 really. Massive quarter final, and then down on performance in the Semi-final.

In 2015 they had the experience to grind it out and win a tight game.

In 2019 they didn't have that experience - as combinations or individuals in a lot of cases, and struggled to revert to a plan B.

Also 2017 to 2019 All Blacks were a bit shit compared to previous iterations. Coaching team past their use by date?
Dan54.
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Re: Was the 2019 loss to ENG actually the worst AB RWC choke

Post by Dan54. »

UncleFB wrote:
Dan54. wrote:
True Blue wrote:It's great how everytime NZ loses a game it's because of a "choke". Guess we're that good.
Was about to say same TB, there are some awful arrogant posters here from NZ who seem to think the only way we can get beaten is if we either choke or play real poorly etc etc, one day they going to wake up , we got some pretty good players but sure not unbeatable.
That's a frikking weird way to look at it Dan.

The "choke" was started by non NZers as a way to give NZ crap.
yep I know FB, but we don't need to go along with it, or insist that because the ABs lose a game every now and then it means we were crap in that game, I really don't think generally there much between any top nations so sometimes you just going to lose!
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Enzedder
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Re: Was the 2019 loss to ENG actually the worst AB RWC choke

Post by Enzedder »

Eugenius wrote:
Enzedder wrote:Ssshhh - some want Whitelock to be ABs captain

Cause what is currently required is a punchy extremely fragile no 7 with a straight losing record ? 🤔

Nibble nibble nibble
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Kahu
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Re: Was the 2019 loss to ENG actually the worst AB RWC choke

Post by Kahu »

95 was the worst choke tied with 07. Mehrtens kicking was even worse than Spencer's intercept pass in 03.

England's final choke though was the worst though. Biggest final hiding ever. Buggers thought they only had to turn up to collect Bill the next week :lol:
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Altazuma
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Re: Was the 2019 loss to ENG actually the worst AB RWC choke

Post by Altazuma »

The AB's had won 17 or so RWC games in a row.

They are allowed to have a bad day.
Eugenius
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Re: Was the 2019 loss to ENG actually the worst AB RWC choke

Post by Eugenius »

Jesus really ?

Far out - ever get the feeling maybe our expectations are insanely high ?
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Murdoch
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Re: Was the 2019 loss to ENG actually the worst AB RWC choke

Post by Murdoch »

I usually equate choking with an inability to execute skills, generally due to the pressure of the situation (both tangible and intangible).
If anything the All Blacks in that semi-final came in subdued, and hadn't placed themselves under *enough* pressure.


Also, as Wayne Smith alluded to, bad coaching.
Our pattern was predictable and Eddie drilled England extremely well. They could anticipate our attack.
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