OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

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Whether you can or can't actually vote IRL, In, or Out

In
248
60%
Out
167
40%
 
Total votes: 415

piquant
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by piquant »

TranceNRG wrote:
They have repeatedly said the parliament will have a say on the final deal. What some people want is to pick an option before they go in to negotiations which is absurd. They are going for the best possible deal for the UK (tariff free access for goods and service but with immigration controls) then it's give and take.
It's not absurd that Parliament wants a say on what the aims of the negotiations would be, that comes more under having parliamentary democracy than being an absurdity. There are of course many issues which will be driven by the government as set out in their manifesto, but setting out what leaving the EU looks like isn't something the government has an electoral mandate for, and absent of an electoral mandate, and absent of a referendum decision saying anything more than 'leave' I can quite see why given our democracy we'd look to parliament.
jorwar
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by jorwar »

TranceNRG wrote:
jorwar wrote:
TranceNRG wrote:
SamShark wrote:Anyway my original question about what the PM thinks still interests me. There are people like Liam Fox who would leave come what may, or people like Clegg who are ideologically pro EU

If presented with all the data, the views, the available deal and all the behind closed doors info, and leaving looked bad, would the PM press ahead anyway because of a vote in 2016 or take another route.

I don't think it's anti democratic or sneering to be concerned that because of politics we'd go down a clearly inferior path.

It might not be that clear cut when it comes to the crunch, but was 23rd June 2016 the last time anyone had any right to influence this issue?
I think only Theresa May and her close colleagues know what she really thinks but I suspect she was a reluctant remainer (like so many other people) who didn't like a lot of things about the EU but was supporting it purely for economical reasons (uncertainty is not great for the economy). Since the referndum she's accepted the result and is committed to delivering the result and getting the best deal possible for the UK - they are being ambitious but a lot of people are trying to stop them but she's shown her great leadership qualities and in resilient in her approach. Theresa May and the government must also be very encouraged by the positive economic data that has come out since referendum - UK economy is one of the strongest in the EU and can withstand tough times. She knows the majority of the UK want immigration controls and she also knows businesses want tariff free access for goods and services. They have a tough job going in to negotiations but they are being optimistic.

I reckon people/parliament will get a say on the final deal before UK leave the EU.
It'll have to be quick because she stupidly set a march deadline. Any deal after that will be a bum deal.
No the march deadline is to trigger article 50. You don't want to delay that any longer. They haven been working hard behind closed doors since the referendum to come up with a plan for negotiations (I'm sure the naysayers will say there's no plan because the details haven't been released). There won't be a deal put to the parliament before that simply because the final deal depends on the negotiations between UK and EU.
Too early in March. There are elections in France and Germany next year. Hollande will be gone.
She wants to preserve the uniquely special position we have in the EU, with a few tweaks.
bimboman
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by bimboman »

SamShark wrote:I don't particularly want to see another referendum anyway - id rather that a very clear 'deal' emerges that parliament can vote on.

There has to be some accountability for the real outcome, not the vague concept of in vs out that was put to people previously.

Let's say we went for a hard brexit "because the people said they wanted to control immigration" and it went horribly tits up, can the people who negotiated the deal just say that it wasn't their fault and they were just interpreting the will of just over half of the population about 3 years ago.

There will be other decisions made and presented as being "democratic" or with a "mandate", mostly that will be wording and presentation and of course be nothing of the sort. I seriously doubt that decisions will be made that are genuinly stupid though if this bunch of intervention lovers possibly assume they can fix things regardless then it may go wrong.

Exciting times.
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TranceNRG
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by TranceNRG »

piquant wrote:
TranceNRG wrote:
They have repeatedly said the parliament will have a say on the final deal. What some people want is to pick an option before they go in to negotiations which is absurd. They are going for the best possible deal for the UK (tariff free access for goods and service but with immigration controls) then it's give and take.
It's not absurd that Parliament wants a say on what the aims of the negotiations would be, that comes more under having parliamentary democracy than being an absurdity. There are of course many issues which will be driven by the government as set out in their manifesto, but setting out what leaving the EU looks like isn't something the government has an electoral mandate for, and absent of an electoral mandate, and absent of a referendum decision saying anything more than 'leave' I can quite see why given our democracy we'd look to parliament.
That's why the parliament will get a say on the final deal. You can't have a vote in the parliament because currently there are no deals on the table.
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Rocketz
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by Rocketz »

A direct result of Brexit. And the EU is not wasting time


EU to approve first ever military budget

http://www.cnbc.com/2016/10/26/european ... udget.html
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Rocketz
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by Rocketz »

jorwar wrote:
TranceNRG wrote:
jorwar wrote:
TranceNRG wrote:
SamShark wrote:Anyway my original question about what the PM thinks still interests me. There are people like Liam Fox who would leave come what may, or people like Clegg who are ideologically pro EU

If presented with all the data, the views, the available deal and all the behind closed doors info, and leaving looked bad, would the PM press ahead anyway because of a vote in 2016 or take another route.

I don't think it's anti democratic or sneering to be concerned that because of politics we'd go down a clearly inferior path.

It might not be that clear cut when it comes to the crunch, but was 23rd June 2016 the last time anyone had any right to influence this issue?
I think only Theresa May and her close colleagues know what she really thinks but I suspect she was a reluctant remainer (like so many other people) who didn't like a lot of things about the EU but was supporting it purely for economical reasons (uncertainty is not great for the economy). Since the referndum she's accepted the result and is committed to delivering the result and getting the best deal possible for the UK - they are being ambitious but a lot of people are trying to stop them but she's shown her great leadership qualities and in resilient in her approach. Theresa May and the government must also be very encouraged by the positive economic data that has come out since referendum - UK economy is one of the strongest in the EU and can withstand tough times. She knows the majority of the UK want immigration controls and she also knows businesses want tariff free access for goods and services. They have a tough job going in to negotiations but they are being optimistic.

I reckon people/parliament will get a say on the final deal before UK leave the EU.
It'll have to be quick because she stupidly set a march deadline. Any deal after that will be a bum deal.
No the march deadline is to trigger article 50. You don't want to delay that any longer. They haven been working hard behind closed doors since the referendum to come up with a plan for negotiations (I'm sure the naysayers will say there's no plan because the details haven't been released). There won't be a deal put to the parliament before that simply because the final deal depends on the negotiations between UK and EU.
Too early in March. There are elections in France and Germany next year. Hollande will be gone.
She wants to preserve the uniquely special position we have in the EU, with a few tweaks.
Can you please elaborate on this statement

She wants to preserve the uniquely special position we have in the EU
piquant
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by piquant »

Also one we've triggered article 50 then it rather locks us into a process. I happen to view the government as being technically entitled to do just that, but it doesn't feel like a correct procedure of due process. To parliament first to actually secure a mandate seems a much better idea to me, a much more democratic idea (and I'm sure we heard details on bringing decision making back into this country), and hopefully avoids the awful scenario of the government later putting a deal before the commons which gets rejected. Yes going to parliament adds some complications and more negotiations, but to have an unelected PM use the royal prerogative brings us more in line with a decision making process that Mugabe would approve of than I'm comfortable with.

I'm still struck that we're going to spend billions on this process, and that it'll restrict so much else that could be getting worked on as it'll drain governmental and civil service resources in alarming fashion.
fisgard792
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by fisgard792 »

TranceNRG wrote:
SamShark wrote:Anyway my original question about what the PM thinks still interests me. There are people like Liam Fox who would leave come what may, or people like Clegg who are ideologically pro EU

If presented with all the data, the views, the available deal and all the behind closed doors info, and leaving looked bad, would the PM press ahead anyway because of a vote in 2016 or take another route.

I don't think it's anti democratic or sneering to be concerned that because of politics we'd go down a clearly inferior path.

It might not be that clear cut when it comes to the crunch, but was 23rd June 2016 the last time anyone had any right to influence this issue?
I think only Theresa May and her close colleagues know what she really thinks but I suspect she was a reluctant remainer (like so many other people) who didn't like a lot of things about the EU but was supporting it purely for economical reasons (uncertainty is not great for the economy). Since the referndum she's accepted the result and is committed to delivering the result and getting the best deal possible for the UK - they are being ambitious but a lot of people are trying to stop them but she's shown her great leadership qualities and in resilient in her approach. Theresa May and the government must also be very encouraged by the positive economic data that has come out since referendum - UK economy is one of the strongest in the EU and can withstand tough times. She knows the majority of the UK want immigration controls and she also knows businesses want tariff free access for goods and services. They have a tough job going in to negotiations but they are being optimistic.

I reckon people/parliament will get a say on the final deal before UK leave the EU.
theres a lot of people bitching, but offering no alternative practicable solutions, but because some feel personally aggrieved the result wasnt the one they wanted, they are losing all rationale

if you broadcast your grey and red lines prior to entering into a negotiation, its actually becomes not a negotiation

how many times in a career, does a person get told to pursue and enact policies on behalf of senior management, they dont agree with, its a pretty common event from my experience, but you generally with caveats, you just get on and do it
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by TranceNRG »

fisgard792 wrote:
TranceNRG wrote:
SamShark wrote:Anyway my original question about what the PM thinks still interests me. There are people like Liam Fox who would leave come what may, or people like Clegg who are ideologically pro EU

If presented with all the data, the views, the available deal and all the behind closed doors info, and leaving looked bad, would the PM press ahead anyway because of a vote in 2016 or take another route.

I don't think it's anti democratic or sneering to be concerned that because of politics we'd go down a clearly inferior path.

It might not be that clear cut when it comes to the crunch, but was 23rd June 2016 the last time anyone had any right to influence this issue?
I think only Theresa May and her close colleagues know what she really thinks but I suspect she was a reluctant remainer (like so many other people) who didn't like a lot of things about the EU but was supporting it purely for economical reasons (uncertainty is not great for the economy). Since the referndum she's accepted the result and is committed to delivering the result and getting the best deal possible for the UK - they are being ambitious but a lot of people are trying to stop them but she's shown her great leadership qualities and in resilient in her approach. Theresa May and the government must also be very encouraged by the positive economic data that has come out since referendum - UK economy is one of the strongest in the EU and can withstand tough times. She knows the majority of the UK want immigration controls and she also knows businesses want tariff free access for goods and services. They have a tough job going in to negotiations but they are being optimistic.

I reckon people/parliament will get a say on the final deal before UK leave the EU.
theres a lot of people bitching, but offering no alternative practicable solutions, but because some feel personally aggrieved the result wasnt the one they wanted, they are losing all rationale

if you broadcast your grey and red lines prior to entering into a negotiation, its actually becomes not a negotiation

how many times in a career, does a person get told to pursue and enact policies on behalf of senior management, they dont agree with, its a pretty common event from my experience, but you generally with caveats, you just get on and do it
Nail on head
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dr dre2
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by dr dre2 »

jorwar wrote:
piquant wrote:
Duff Paddy wrote:
piquant wrote:
jorwar wrote: "A lot of these people would presumably agree with AC Grayling, who may yet find himself in the unfamiliar position of speaking for a substantial body of public opinion: leaving the EU, he recently tweeted, “is obviously such an incredibly bad idea – just stop it."

For many people that kind of talk always triggers a deep ambivalence. If what took the leave side to victory was the support of so-called “left behind” voters who had not been listened to for decades, it still seems to me that arguing they should be ignored may not just be democratically questionable, but a gift to the forces that, even with Ukip apparently imploding, would know a once-in-a-lifetime chance when they saw it, and strike.
I think we have to respect the result of the referendum. But it's not easy as to what comes next, partly it's not easy to see a path forward that doesn't cost a lot of money, partly beyond 'leave the EU' there's no actual mandate set out.
Fleet Street had a good old laugh at Ireland re-running the Lisbon Treaty referendum but maybe now it is a little more clear that referenda usually aren't the appropriate mechanism to decide on complex issues. Brexit was the wrong decision and there's no shame in admitting that the referendum got it wrong.
I think it's an appalling decision, but I also think the votes went as they did and it's important to respect that.
But isn't that denying the sovereignty argument, that parliament calls the tune in this country, it listens and then acts.
No, we are talking about the British holding sovereignty and the decisions being made here. Now ordinarily we would expect that to be parliament with a mandate of pre-election promise on bigger issues or parliament through judgement with a mandate to lead, but if the mandate comes direct from the people via a referendum that should take preference. They are all methods in which the people decide with differing levels of mandate and vote is the purest. We have told them to leave the EU full stop.
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by piquant »

The problem remains the people haven't set out a mandate other than leave the EU.

To fulfill that mandate we could simply leave the EU, but agree to accept all the rules we're currently signed up to, and to accept new rules as they pass them. And we'd be accepting to keep up our payments into the EU budget. Really the only difference would be we'd have lost our seat at the decision making table, but it would meet the stated action of the referendum result. It's just possible there would be problems stemming from such a move.
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dr dre2
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by dr dre2 »

piquant wrote:Also one we've triggered article 50 then it rather locks us into a process. I happen to view the government as being technically entitled to do just that, but it doesn't feel like a correct procedure of due process. To parliament first to actually secure a mandate seems a much better idea to me, a much more democratic idea (and I'm sure we heard details on bringing decision making back into this country), and hopefully avoids the awful scenario of the government later putting a deal before the commons which gets rejected. Yes going to parliament adds some complications and more negotiations, but to have an unelected PM use the royal prerogative brings us more in line with a decision making process that Mugabe would approve of than I'm comfortable with.

I'm still struck that we're going to spend billions on this process, and that it'll restrict so much else that could be getting worked on as it'll drain governmental and civil service resources in alarming fashion.
We have to trigger a50 before we know what the deal will be, we cant possibly know what the deal will be, by the time we do the process is irreversible and the deal we get is the deal we get, what exactly are parliament going to vote on?
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TranceNRG
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by TranceNRG »

piquant wrote:The problem remains the people haven't set out a mandate other than leave the EU.

To fulfill that mandate we could simply leave the EU, but agree to accept all the rules we're currently signed up to, and to accept new rules as they pass them. And we'd be accepting to keep up our payments into the EU budget. Really the only difference would be we'd have lost our seat at the decision making table, but it would meet the stated action of the referendum result. It's just possible there would be problems stemming from such a move.
You are talking about EEA membership which is not what UK government want - they couldn't be any clearer about this. They are going for a customised deal for the UK. Nothing wrong with being ambitious and I'm confident they will manage to strike a good deal.
piquant
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by piquant »

dr dre2 wrote:
piquant wrote:Also one we've triggered article 50 then it rather locks us into a process. I happen to view the government as being technically entitled to do just that, but it doesn't feel like a correct procedure of due process. To parliament first to actually secure a mandate seems a much better idea to me, a much more democratic idea (and I'm sure we heard details on bringing decision making back into this country), and hopefully avoids the awful scenario of the government later putting a deal before the commons which gets rejected. Yes going to parliament adds some complications and more negotiations, but to have an unelected PM use the royal prerogative brings us more in line with a decision making process that Mugabe would approve of than I'm comfortable with.

I'm still struck that we're going to spend billions on this process, and that it'll restrict so much else that could be getting worked on as it'll drain governmental and civil service resources in alarming fashion.
We have to trigger a50 before we know what the deal will be, we cant possibly know what the deal will be, by the time we do the process is irreversible and the deal we get is the deal we get, what exactly are parliament going to vote on?
What are aims are.

Such aims may fail in the negotiations, but it'd be good to get a reasonable mandate established.
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Duff Paddy
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by Duff Paddy »

TranceNRG wrote:
piquant wrote:The problem remains the people haven't set out a mandate other than leave the EU.

To fulfill that mandate we could simply leave the EU, but agree to accept all the rules we're currently signed up to, and to accept new rules as they pass them. And we'd be accepting to keep up our payments into the EU budget. Really the only difference would be we'd have lost our seat at the decision making table, but it would meet the stated action of the referendum result. It's just possible there would be problems stemming from such a move.
You are talking about EEA membership which is not what UK government want - they couldn't be any clearer about this. They are going for a customised deal for the UK. Nothing wrong with being ambitious and I'm confident they will manage to strike a good deal.
What's this confidence based on exactly
piquant
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by piquant »

TranceNRG wrote:
piquant wrote:The problem remains the people haven't set out a mandate other than leave the EU.

To fulfill that mandate we could simply leave the EU, but agree to accept all the rules we're currently signed up to, and to accept new rules as they pass them. And we'd be accepting to keep up our payments into the EU budget. Really the only difference would be we'd have lost our seat at the decision making table, but it would meet the stated action of the referendum result. It's just possible there would be problems stemming from such a move.
You are talking about EEA membership which is not what UK government want - they couldn't be any clearer about this. They are going for a customised deal for the UK. Nothing wrong with being ambitious and I'm confident they will manage to strike a good deal.
If I'd said EEA rather than EU then yes I'd have been talking about the EEA. As it was I said EU, and you should feel happy to infer I meant EU.
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by TranceNRG »

piquant do you live in the UK? Theresa May has such high approval rating and Conservatives are currently polling so far above everyone else. Theresa May's government is well aware they have a lot of support behind them despite a vocal few making things difficult for them.
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dr dre2
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by dr dre2 »

piquant wrote:The problem remains the people haven't set out a mandate other than leave the EU.

To fulfill that mandate we could simply leave the EU, but agree to accept all the rules we're currently signed up to, and to accept new rules as they pass them. And we'd be accepting to keep up our payments into the EU budget. Really the only difference would be we'd have lost our seat at the decision making table, but it would meet the stated action of the referendum result. It's just possible there would be problems stemming from such a move.
It was clear to the MP's that while campaigning the major issues were recurring in both the GE & referendum. Those form our red lines and they overlap the EU's red lines. The people have spoken.

We will push forward free movement to be removed and they will take something away from us in return, we'll push forward the next thing and they will remove something else. We'll end up with something akin to the Norway deal on worse terms, but free movement etc. removed.
fisgard792
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by fisgard792 »

TranceNRG wrote:
fisgard792 wrote:
TranceNRG wrote:
SamShark wrote:Anyway my original question about what the PM thinks still interests me. There are people like Liam Fox who would leave come what may, or people like Clegg who are ideologically pro EU

If presented with all the data, the views, the available deal and all the behind closed doors info, and leaving looked bad, would the PM press ahead anyway because of a vote in 2016 or take another route.

I don't think it's anti democratic or sneering to be concerned that because of politics we'd go down a clearly inferior path.

It might not be that clear cut when it comes to the crunch, but was 23rd June 2016 the last time anyone had any right to influence this issue?
I think only Theresa May and her close colleagues know what she really thinks but I suspect she was a reluctant remainer (like so many other people) who didn't like a lot of things about the EU but was supporting it purely for economical reasons (uncertainty is not great for the economy). Since the referndum she's accepted the result and is committed to delivering the result and getting the best deal possible for the UK - they are being ambitious but a lot of people are trying to stop them but she's shown her great leadership qualities and in resilient in her approach. Theresa May and the government must also be very encouraged by the positive economic data that has come out since referendum - UK economy is one of the strongest in the EU and can withstand tough times. She knows the majority of the UK want immigration controls and she also knows businesses want tariff free access for goods and services. They have a tough job going in to negotiations but they are being optimistic.

I reckon people/parliament will get a say on the final deal before UK leave the EU.
theres a lot of people bitching, but offering no alternative practicable solutions, but because some feel personally aggrieved the result wasnt the one they wanted, they are losing all rationale

if you broadcast your grey and red lines prior to entering into a negotiation, its actually becomes not a negotiation

how many times in a career, does a person get told to pursue and enact policies on behalf of senior management, they dont agree with, its a pretty common event from my experience, but you generally with caveats, you just get on and do it
Nail on head
perhaps like this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amZsdpLXcIo
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TranceNRG
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by TranceNRG »

piquant wrote:
TranceNRG wrote:
piquant wrote:The problem remains the people haven't set out a mandate other than leave the EU.

To fulfill that mandate we could simply leave the EU, but agree to accept all the rules we're currently signed up to, and to accept new rules as they pass them. And we'd be accepting to keep up our payments into the EU budget. Really the only difference would be we'd have lost our seat at the decision making table, but it would meet the stated action of the referendum result. It's just possible there would be problems stemming from such a move.
You are talking about EEA membership which is not what UK government want - they couldn't be any clearer about this. They are going for a customised deal for the UK. Nothing wrong with being ambitious and I'm confident they will manage to strike a good deal.
If I'd said EEA rather than EU then yes I'd have been talking about the EEA. As it was I said EU, and you should feel happy to infer I meant EU.
The situation you were referring to (being out of the EU but agreeing to all the EU laws plus continuing similar payments in to the EU budget) is being part of the EEA.
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dr dre2
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by dr dre2 »

piquant wrote:
dr dre2 wrote:
piquant wrote:Also one we've triggered article 50 then it rather locks us into a process. I happen to view the government as being technically entitled to do just that, but it doesn't feel like a correct procedure of due process. To parliament first to actually secure a mandate seems a much better idea to me, a much more democratic idea (and I'm sure we heard details on bringing decision making back into this country), and hopefully avoids the awful scenario of the government later putting a deal before the commons which gets rejected. Yes going to parliament adds some complications and more negotiations, but to have an unelected PM use the royal prerogative brings us more in line with a decision making process that Mugabe would approve of than I'm comfortable with.

I'm still struck that we're going to spend billions on this process, and that it'll restrict so much else that could be getting worked on as it'll drain governmental and civil service resources in alarming fashion.
We have to trigger a50 before we know what the deal will be, we cant possibly know what the deal will be, by the time we do the process is irreversible and the deal we get is the deal we get, what exactly are parliament going to vote on?
What are aims are.

Such aims may fail in the negotiations, but it'd be good to get a reasonable mandate established.
It's ridiculous to enter negotiations with a voted on list of demands you cant really bend on.
piquant
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by piquant »

TranceNRG wrote:
piquant wrote:
TranceNRG wrote:
piquant wrote:The problem remains the people haven't set out a mandate other than leave the EU.

To fulfill that mandate we could simply leave the EU, but agree to accept all the rules we're currently signed up to, and to accept new rules as they pass them. And we'd be accepting to keep up our payments into the EU budget. Really the only difference would be we'd have lost our seat at the decision making table, but it would meet the stated action of the referendum result. It's just possible there would be problems stemming from such a move.
You are talking about EEA membership which is not what UK government want - they couldn't be any clearer about this. They are going for a customised deal for the UK. Nothing wrong with being ambitious and I'm confident they will manage to strike a good deal.
If I'd said EEA rather than EU then yes I'd have been talking about the EEA. As it was I said EU, and you should feel happy to infer I meant EU.
The situation you were referring to (being out of the EU but agreeing to all the EU laws plus continuing similar payments in to the EU budget) is being part of the EEA.
This is true, and I have no pithy comeback for it.
piquant
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by piquant »

dr dre2 wrote:
piquant wrote:
dr dre2 wrote:
piquant wrote:Also one we've triggered article 50 then it rather locks us into a process. I happen to view the government as being technically entitled to do just that, but it doesn't feel like a correct procedure of due process. To parliament first to actually secure a mandate seems a much better idea to me, a much more democratic idea (and I'm sure we heard details on bringing decision making back into this country), and hopefully avoids the awful scenario of the government later putting a deal before the commons which gets rejected. Yes going to parliament adds some complications and more negotiations, but to have an unelected PM use the royal prerogative brings us more in line with a decision making process that Mugabe would approve of than I'm comfortable with.

I'm still struck that we're going to spend billions on this process, and that it'll restrict so much else that could be getting worked on as it'll drain governmental and civil service resources in alarming fashion.
We have to trigger a50 before we know what the deal will be, we cant possibly know what the deal will be, by the time we do the process is irreversible and the deal we get is the deal we get, what exactly are parliament going to vote on?
What are aims are.

Such aims may fail in the negotiations, but it'd be good to get a reasonable mandate established.
It's ridiculous to enter negotiations with a voted on list of demands you cant really bend on.
Meh. This government was elected on a manifesto to amongst cut the deficit in specific fashion, and yet they've happily just scrapped that detail on the back of a new PM no one voted for.

Clearly it's not that tricky to bend even when you've said you will not. And too if they meet such problems then go back to parliament. These don't have to be one time can never be revisited decisions, as we've recently proved with a decision to leave.
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by TranceNRG »

fisgard792 wrote:
TranceNRG wrote:
fisgard792 wrote:
TranceNRG wrote:
SamShark wrote:Anyway my original question about what the PM thinks still interests me. There are people like Liam Fox who would leave come what may, or people like Clegg who are ideologically pro EU

If presented with all the data, the views, the available deal and all the behind closed doors info, and leaving looked bad, would the PM press ahead anyway because of a vote in 2016 or take another route.

I don't think it's anti democratic or sneering to be concerned that because of politics we'd go down a clearly inferior path.

It might not be that clear cut when it comes to the crunch, but was 23rd June 2016 the last time anyone had any right to influence this issue?
I think only Theresa May and her close colleagues know what she really thinks but I suspect she was a reluctant remainer (like so many other people) who didn't like a lot of things about the EU but was supporting it purely for economical reasons (uncertainty is not great for the economy). Since the referndum she's accepted the result and is committed to delivering the result and getting the best deal possible for the UK - they are being ambitious but a lot of people are trying to stop them but she's shown her great leadership qualities and in resilient in her approach. Theresa May and the government must also be very encouraged by the positive economic data that has come out since referendum - UK economy is one of the strongest in the EU and can withstand tough times. She knows the majority of the UK want immigration controls and she also knows businesses want tariff free access for goods and services. They have a tough job going in to negotiations but they are being optimistic.

I reckon people/parliament will get a say on the final deal before UK leave the EU.
theres a lot of people bitching, but offering no alternative practicable solutions, but because some feel personally aggrieved the result wasnt the one they wanted, they are losing all rationale

if you broadcast your grey and red lines prior to entering into a negotiation, its actually becomes not a negotiation

how many times in a career, does a person get told to pursue and enact policies on behalf of senior management, they dont agree with, its a pretty common event from my experience, but you generally with caveats, you just get on and do it
Nail on head
perhaps like this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amZsdpLXcIo
:lol: Quality! :thumbup:
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by dr dre2 »

piquant wrote:
dr dre2 wrote:
piquant wrote:
dr dre2 wrote:
piquant wrote:Also one we've triggered article 50 then it rather locks us into a process. I happen to view the government as being technically entitled to do just that, but it doesn't feel like a correct procedure of due process. To parliament first to actually secure a mandate seems a much better idea to me, a much more democratic idea (and I'm sure we heard details on bringing decision making back into this country), and hopefully avoids the awful scenario of the government later putting a deal before the commons which gets rejected. Yes going to parliament adds some complications and more negotiations, but to have an unelected PM use the royal prerogative brings us more in line with a decision making process that Mugabe would approve of than I'm comfortable with.

I'm still struck that we're going to spend billions on this process, and that it'll restrict so much else that could be getting worked on as it'll drain governmental and civil service resources in alarming fashion.
We have to trigger a50 before we know what the deal will be, we cant possibly know what the deal will be, by the time we do the process is irreversible and the deal we get is the deal we get, what exactly are parliament going to vote on?
What are aims are.

Such aims may fail in the negotiations, but it'd be good to get a reasonable mandate established.
It's ridiculous to enter negotiations with a voted on list of demands you cant really bend on.
Meh. This government was elected on a manifesto to amongst cut the deficit in specific fashion, and yet they've happily just scrapped that detail on the back of a new PM no one voted for.

Clearly it's not that tricky to bend even when you've said you will not. And too if they meet such problems then go back to parliament. These don't have to be one time can never be revisited decisions, as we've recently proved with a decision to leave.
There is a new mandate from the people post GE that sets a new priority that makes the old mandate unworkable. In most cases arguing a case that you have a indirect and quite loosely defined mandate from the people, and putting that to a vote of their representatives is quite sufficient for everyday government. But in the presence of a direct mandate from the people, it's hard to argue that their representatives have a more solid one. This direct mandate says leave the EU and the overwhelming evidence is that this includes ending free movement. Now if the peoples representatives vote and set another mandate at odds to the mandate of the people it should not take precedence anyway, your representatives should not overrule you.
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by piquant »

dr dre2 wrote: There is a new mandate from the people post GE that sets a new priority that makes the old mandate unworkable. In most cases arguing a case that you have a indirect and quite loosely defined mandate from the people, and putting that to a vote of their representatives is quite sufficient for everyday government. But in the presence of a direct mandate from the people, it's hard to argue that their representatives have a more solid one. This direct mandate says leave the EU and the overwhelming evidence is that this includes ending free movement. Now if the peoples representatives vote and set another mandate at odds to the mandate of the people it should not take precedence anyway, your representatives should not overrule you.
I agree there's a mandate to leave the EU. To scrap free movement, well maybe, certainly there's a large number against people coming here.
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by dr dre2 »

piquant wrote:
dr dre2 wrote: There is a new mandate from the people post GE that sets a new priority that makes the old mandate unworkable. In most cases arguing a case that you have a indirect and quite loosely defined mandate from the people, and putting that to a vote of their representatives is quite sufficient for everyday government. But in the presence of a direct mandate from the people, it's hard to argue that their representatives have a more solid one. This direct mandate says leave the EU and the overwhelming evidence is that this includes ending free movement. Now if the peoples representatives vote and set another mandate at odds to the mandate of the people it should not take precedence anyway, your representatives should not overrule you.
I agree there's a mandate to leave the EU. To scrap free movement, well maybe, certainly there's a large number against people coming here.
The scrap free movement mandate is certainly looser than the leave the EU mandate, but it's a whole lot stronger than a hell of a lot of other loose mandates. It was the winning argument according to just about every poll and opinion. Now that creates a red line that rules out some of the other leave options and we know that the EU has a red line there too. Which leaves a solid mandate for "hard brexit" that the representatives cant really argue they have a more solid one, and should not contradict. Now i'm uncomfortable with "hard brexit" as a term, yes it forces us to leave the "single market tm" as that has free movement as a package, BUT we are going to attempt to negotiate "near single market tm" access something close to CETA (or EEA-), so we will hard brexit but them hopefully reenter something closely resembling the single market. Now CETA took many years of negotiating but that was from a standing start. We are already perfectly in sync with the EU and it's a matter of a handful of things being removed, rather than ripping it up and starting again. It's better that the government don't have their hands tied and cards facing up going in to these negotiations.

Now people play us down, but we hold a lot of cards. It's become a bit of a toxic subject that gets mocked but it's very valid. We buy more from them than they do from us, we are their best customer and there are no absolutes. If you are faced with losing a big chunk of custom over a few workable differences you suck it up and negotiate, that's just business. And Germany alone would be risking the sale of 800,000 cars in just one industry. What would the share holders say to that kind of retraction? jobs lost heads would roll. Now I'm not suggesting the German car industry or Germany have the final say, but pragmatism and good business will win over spite and we'll end up with EEA-.
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by piquant »

dr dre2 wrote:
The scrap free movement mandate is certainly looser than the leave the EU mandate, but it's a whole lot stronger than a hell of a lot of other loose mandates. It was the winning argument according to just about every poll and opinion. Now that creates a red line that rules out some of the other leave options and we know that the EU has a red line there too. Which leaves a solid mandate for "hard brexit" that the representatives cant really argue they have a more solid one, and should not contradict. Now i'm uncomfortable with "hard brexit" as a term, yes it forces us to leave the "single market tm" as that has free movement as a package, BUT we are going to attempt to negotiate "near single market tm" access something close to CETA (or EEA-), so we will hard brexit but them hopefully reenter something closely resembling the single market. Now CETA took many years of negotiating but that was from a standing start. We are already perfectly in sync with the EU and it's a matter of a handful of things being removed, rather than ripping it up and starting again. It's better that the government don't have their hands tied and cards facing up going in to these negotiations.
I'm not sure one can claim to be in perfect sync having just noted one would cross a red line such as free movement.

CETA is probably a more straightforward deal tbh, and wasn't coming from a standing start. What it probably does show is there's no chance to get the work done in two years once we trigger a50, and hopefully the EU at least plays ball by giving us an interim deal

And it's arguably better for the government not to have their hands tied, but that's a different thing to being democratic about it, it's always easier to just dictate.

And there's no mandate for hard brexit, or soft either. There's no mandate bar leave the EU, and i can only hope we don't allow pollsters to ever create policy in such fashion as using word maps with immigration to the fore to reveal the roadmap
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by dr dre2 »

piquant wrote:
dr dre2 wrote:
The scrap free movement mandate is certainly looser than the leave the EU mandate, but it's a whole lot stronger than a hell of a lot of other loose mandates. It was the winning argument according to just about every poll and opinion. Now that creates a red line that rules out some of the other leave options and we know that the EU has a red line there too. Which leaves a solid mandate for "hard brexit" that the representatives cant really argue they have a more solid one, and should not contradict. Now i'm uncomfortable with "hard brexit" as a term, yes it forces us to leave the "single market tm" as that has free movement as a package, BUT we are going to attempt to negotiate "near single market tm" access something close to CETA (or EEA-), so we will hard brexit but them hopefully reenter something closely resembling the single market. Now CETA took many years of negotiating but that was from a standing start. We are already perfectly in sync with the EU and it's a matter of a handful of things being removed, rather than ripping it up and starting again. It's better that the government don't have their hands tied and cards facing up going in to these negotiations.
I'm not sure one can claim to be in perfect sync having just noted one would cross a red line such as free movement.

CETA is probably a more straightforward deal tbh, and wasn't coming from a standing start. What it probably does show is there's no chance to get the work done in two years once we trigger a50, and hopefully the EU at least plays ball by giving us an interim deal

And it's arguably better for the government not to have their hands tied, but that's a different thing to being democratic about it, it's always easier to just dictate.

And there's no mandate for hard brexit, or soft either. There's no mandate bar leave the EU, and i can only hope we don't allow pollsters to ever create policy in such fashion as using word maps with immigration to the fore to reveal the roadmap
I said we are CURRENTLY in perfect sync. Free movement is one of the handful of things that need to be un-sync'd on each side. 95% of the agreements can stay in place, now i'd hardly call that simple but it's hardly akin to starting negotiations on a whole trade deal, it's starting with one and working backwards and much more straight forward. It was plainly obvious that free movement was the key issue, how many interviews did you see where pro remain Labour MPs admitted to fighting a losing battle on the doorstep over immigration? I think you'll find they will freely admit it was the key motivating factor if asked, it's a mandate and I'd be keen to hear what you think, or anybody thinks was the winning argument if not that. Good luck arguing that immigration was not the major factor, jesus christ!! When it suited, all the slurs of racism were just fine, now it's not an issue.
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by piquant »

dr dre2 wrote:
piquant wrote:
dr dre2 wrote:
The scrap free movement mandate is certainly looser than the leave the EU mandate, but it's a whole lot stronger than a hell of a lot of other loose mandates. It was the winning argument according to just about every poll and opinion. Now that creates a red line that rules out some of the other leave options and we know that the EU has a red line there too. Which leaves a solid mandate for "hard brexit" that the representatives cant really argue they have a more solid one, and should not contradict. Now i'm uncomfortable with "hard brexit" as a term, yes it forces us to leave the "single market tm" as that has free movement as a package, BUT we are going to attempt to negotiate "near single market tm" access something close to CETA (or EEA-), so we will hard brexit but them hopefully reenter something closely resembling the single market. Now CETA took many years of negotiating but that was from a standing start. We are already perfectly in sync with the EU and it's a matter of a handful of things being removed, rather than ripping it up and starting again. It's better that the government don't have their hands tied and cards facing up going in to these negotiations.
I'm not sure one can claim to be in perfect sync having just noted one would cross a red line such as free movement.

CETA is probably a more straightforward deal tbh, and wasn't coming from a standing start. What it probably does show is there's no chance to get the work done in two years once we trigger a50, and hopefully the EU at least plays ball by giving us an interim deal

And it's arguably better for the government not to have their hands tied, but that's a different thing to being democratic about it, it's always easier to just dictate.

And there's no mandate for hard brexit, or soft either. There's no mandate bar leave the EU, and i can only hope we don't allow pollsters to ever create policy in such fashion as using word maps with immigration to the fore to reveal the roadmap
I said we are CURRENTLY in perfect sync. Free movement is one of the handful of things that need to be un-sync'd on each side. 95% of the agreements can stay in place, now i'd hardly call that simple but it's hardly akin to starting negotiations on a whole trade deal, it's starting with one and working backwards and much more straight forward. It was plainly obvious that free movement was the key issue, how many interviews did you see where pro remain Labour MPs admitted to fighting a losing battle on the doorstep over immigration? I think you'll find they will freely admit it was the key motivating factor if asked, it's a mandate and I'd be keen to hear what you think, or anybody thinks was the winning argument if not that.
I think it was a key argument, albeit in part mistakenly directed at the EU and ignoring some economic reality. But it wasn't actually voted on. To have established a mandate on what direction we should now be taking such question would have to have been posed by the referendum and obviously it wasn't, which to me leaves us going to parliament to debate what our aims should be.

I've no idea where you're getting 95% of agreements can stay the same from other than as a figure plucked from the air, but it does seem to overlook the downstream impact of so many decisions that can or might be made in the months and years ahead. The idea things can basically stay the same makes sense as an interim deal whilst we work towards a new deal, I'm hopeful the EU will go for that, and that we'll have to accept on our end that the interim will be the status quo.

I'm worried of course that until a new deal is established that we'll see lower rates of investment, doubt always tending to see firms delaying or canceling spend. I know at my firm we've moved all new spending in Europe into Poland, now we might have done that anyway, but there's basically a ban on hiring and any serious capital spend in the UK now and it's not even up for discussion.
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

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It was so core to the argument that the pro remain PM went to negotiate free movement prior to the referendum, he came back with an offer of a "handbrake" and put that to the people, his deal, his handbrake, his solution were rejected. MANDATE.
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

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dr dre2 wrote:It was so core to the argument that the pro remain PM went to negotiate free movement prior to the referendum, he came back with an offer of a "handbrake" and put that to the people, his deal, his handbrake, his solution were rejected. MANDATE.

Don't be silly.
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

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bimboman wrote:
dr dre2 wrote:It was so core to the argument that the pro remain PM went to negotiate free movement prior to the referendum, he came back with an offer of a "handbrake" and put that to the people, his deal, his handbrake, his solution were rejected. MANDATE.

Don't be silly.
Care to expand? It was key to the case for remain and the counter key to the case to leave. It was put to the people as a case to remain. The people deemed it insufficient as a solution. The issue of EU immigration was strong enough for the PM to recognise it as key and attempt to renegotiate it, then put that to the people at the referendum, it kicked it all off. He made the claim that if he didn't deem it sufficient, he would campaign to leave also. Curbing benefits for the reason of reducing attractiveness and therefore EU immigration was deemed to be insufficient by the people. It was his centre piece. Therefore EU immigration and free movement was a central issue and one that the PM himself declared the determining factor on which he would cast his vote.
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by Petej »

dr dre2 wrote:
bimboman wrote:
dr dre2 wrote:It was so core to the argument that the pro remain PM went to negotiate free movement prior to the referendum, he came back with an offer of a "handbrake" and put that to the people, his deal, his handbrake, his solution were rejected. MANDATE.

Don't be silly.
Care to expand? It was key to the case for remain and the counter key to the case to leave. It was put to the people as a case to remain. The people deemed it insufficient as a solution. The issue of EU immigration was strong enough for the PM to recognise it as key and attempt to renegotiate it, then put that to the people at the referendum, it kicked it all off. He made the claim that if he didn't deem it sufficient, he would campaign to leave also. Curbing benefits for the reason of reducing attractiveness and therefore EU immigration was deemed to be insufficient by the people. It was his centre piece. Therefore EU immigration and free movement was a central issue and one that the PM himself declared the determining factor on which he would cast his vote.
A lot of people don't differentiate between EU immigration (which i don't have a problem with) and external immigration (which i do have a problem with due to greater difficulties in integration).
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by piquant »

dr dre2 wrote:
bimboman wrote:
dr dre2 wrote:It was so core to the argument that the pro remain PM went to negotiate free movement prior to the referendum, he came back with an offer of a "handbrake" and put that to the people, his deal, his handbrake, his solution were rejected. MANDATE.

Don't be silly.
Care to expand? It was key to the case for remain and the counter key to the case to leave. It was put to the people as a case to remain. The people deemed it insufficient as a solution. The issue of EU immigration was strong enough for the PM to recognise it as key and attempt to renegotiate it, then put that to the people at the referendum, it kicked it all off. He made the claim that if he didn't deem it sufficient, he would campaign to leave also. Curbing benefits for the reason of reducing attractiveness and therefore EU immigration was deemed to be insufficient by the people. It was his centre piece. Therefore EU immigration and free movement was a central issue and one that the PM himself declared the determining factor on which he would cast his vote.
It was a central issue, along with a number of other central issues. Seeing as the question wasn't actually set though it'd seem unwise to ascribe motive looking backwards. If a mandate was wanted on such it could have been asked - though what we might see the GE with manifestos setting out the various party views on this and that might now be the best we can hope for in establishing an actual mandate.

As it stands we'd probably find a large number of people in favour of ending free movement in both leave and remain voting camps. We'd also find large numbers against it in both. And we'd find another group across both leave and remain being in favour of ending free movement providing it doesn't lead to lower economic wealth, and with any number of gradations on that theme.
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by camroc1 »

An interesting piece from today's Irish Times, by Chris Johns, a Welsh economist who's lived in Ireland for the past 25 years.
Brexit: Chris Johns on Britain’s lazy, jaw-dropping act of visceral self-harm
Ireland and Britain have stronger links than many realise, and it’s not all economics

about 20 hours ago
Chris Johns



October 1st found me sitting in an Irish bar in Cambridge watching a replay of the All-Ireland football final. I’ve lived in Ireland since 1988 and have tried to develop an interest in GAA but have to admit I don’t get it. Never mind, my sports-mad Irish son was starting university and I was happy to be spending time with him after delivering his gear to his new college. I spent most of the match reading the newspapers which were full, as is usual these days, of Brexit-related articles and commentary.
I needed a drink, having just shelled out for fees which, in England, run at just over three times the cost of an Irish university. Before the referendum that would have been roughly four times Irish fees; such are the effects of sterling’s devaluation. Sterling is the single most important barometer of unemotional Brexit opinion, one that is sending a powerful message that the Conservatives are happy to dismiss as just another expert opinion.
Travel freely
I am getting a British passport for my younger son, aware that the fees issue is likely to be rather a bigger problem in 2020, should he opt to leave Dublin. At the same time, I’m getting an Irish passport, qualifying via my Irish wife and 28 years of residency. I need to be able to travel freely around Europe and I am learning to speak French in an Irish accent – believe me, it helps.
Like most expat Brits I took a personal interest in the referendum and still feel resentful that I didn’t get a vote. As an economist I share the bafflement of those who believe that Brexit is an extraordinary act of self harm: those words are chosen carefully because I can only rationalise the outcome in terms of psychology. At best, Brexit is an emotional spasm; delusion on a grand scale. At worst, much darker forces are in play.


Initial characterisations of Brexiteers as the very rich, the very poor, the old and uneducated were found to be only partly true. The statistical picture is nuanced, something I discovered via a more informal route: the number of people I know; friends who voted to Leave.

I’ve holidayed in France for three decades, always sharing a house with various groups of people, mostly British, several of whom I have known since school days in Cardiff. When you have been acquainted for that long there are few surprises. Or at least that is what I thought.
Jaw-dropping
For the first time, late-night, wine-fuelled conversation turned into full-blown arguments and, on two occasions, a fist fight that I had to break up. The rows were about Brexit of course, and I was astonished to discover not just how deeply both sides hold their beliefs, but just how visceral, rather than rational, it has all become. The arguments of the Brexiteers are anti-intellectual, lazy, populist, xenophobic (if not racist) and utterly inward-looking.
Much is rightly made over the Tory reinterpretation of the referendum. Apparently, it was a protest against globalisation, immigration, the political classes, the elites, low wages and foreign doctors. It was a demand to bring back grammar schools and put workers on to company boards. And because 52 per cent of voters are upset about all of this, something must be done. Oh, and two fingers to the 48 per cent who aren’t as bothered; they are part of an elite that only exists to be sneered at. Didn’t anybody ever warn Theresa May about creating hostages to fortune? She wont be able to do anything about any of these “problems”. And she has made exactly the same mistake as Hillary Clinton: demonising voters who happen to disagree with you.
The shallowness – or unseriousness – of all this is jaw-dropping. Maybe de Gaulle was right, Europe should never have let the Brits in. After all, they have never understood Europe. I blame, partly, successive generations of Europhile politicians such as Ted Heath and Ken Clarke: they always downplayed Europe’s federal ambitions and kept telling us that it was just a free-trade zone. You have to know a little bit about history to understand the EU, perhaps even forgive some of its many infuriating aspects. Indeed, there is a lot to forgive.
Global citizenship
It is lazy to blame globalisation – another thing the UK political scene has in common with the US. There is a problem with unskilled labour. There are fewer jobs and no wage growth, but this is a global phenomenon with virtually no evidence that migration is the cause. It has got lots to do with technological change and low growth. Moaning about globalisation means that politicians can absolve themselves of responsibility and always “blame the other”. If they did something about anaemic economic growth, something now easily within their grasp, they would find a lot of the things they worry about would magically disappear. In the process, they would discover that it has got nothing to do with Europe or immigration.
In Ireland, we have, proportionately, more immigrants than the UK. And we are utterly relaxed about this. That’s a huge change from when I first arrived: it was a monolithically white culture back then. The Irish are outward-looking and choose to focus on the benefits of migration. That’s a stark and unexpected contrast between these two islands. Our newspapers don’t demonise immigrants or Europe and our Government leaders don’t have private meetings with Rupert Murdoch.
Ireland only joined the EU because the UK did. We think we are no longer as connected to the British economy as we were back then. While that is true, it may not be the whole truth: my fear is that we are still too linked together. And it’s not just the economic connections: you don’t have to live here to understand the significance of the Border. It would be a tragedy with potentially devastating consequences if anything like a hard border between North and South were reinstated. The consequences of this cannot be underestimated. Of course, those consequences will be the collateral damage of the Tory Party’s long European war, damage that they will have caused but will never take responsibility for.

Belittled
Ms May was insulting when she belittled anyone who thinks of themselves as a world citizen. Those of us who are quite comfortable with the concept of global citizenship understand the importance of contribution to local culture, paying local taxes and simply being involved.
Citizenship is most definitely not populist pandering to the imaginary and conflicting desires of 52 per cent of voters: a good citizen understands there are other people with rights, hopes and desires both within and without a country’s borders.
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by Chuckles1188 »

camroc1 wrote:
And she has made exactly the same mistake as Hillary Clinton: demonising voters who happen to disagree with you.
Good piece with the exception of this bizarre tangent
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by dr dre2 »

piquant wrote:
dr dre2 wrote:
bimboman wrote:
dr dre2 wrote:It was so core to the argument that the pro remain PM went to negotiate free movement prior to the referendum, he came back with an offer of a "handbrake" and put that to the people, his deal, his handbrake, his solution were rejected. MANDATE.

Don't be silly.
Care to expand? It was key to the case for remain and the counter key to the case to leave. It was put to the people as a case to remain. The people deemed it insufficient as a solution. The issue of EU immigration was strong enough for the PM to recognise it as key and attempt to renegotiate it, then put that to the people at the referendum, it kicked it all off. He made the claim that if he didn't deem it sufficient, he would campaign to leave also. Curbing benefits for the reason of reducing attractiveness and therefore EU immigration was deemed to be insufficient by the people. It was his centre piece. Therefore EU immigration and free movement was a central issue and one that the PM himself declared the determining factor on which he would cast his vote.
It was a central issue, along with a number of other central issues. Seeing as the question wasn't actually set though it'd seem unwise to ascribe motive looking backwards. If a mandate was wanted on such it could have been asked - though what we might see the GE with manifestos setting out the various party views on this and that might now be the best we can hope for in establishing an actual mandate.

As it stands we'd probably find a large number of people in favour of ending free movement in both leave and remain voting camps. We'd also find large numbers against it in both. And we'd find another group across both leave and remain being in favour of ending free movement providing it doesn't lead to lower economic wealth, and with any number of gradations on that theme.
As I said it's looser, but more than sufficient in comparison to precedent. It was made key to the case to remain (and leave), it's no more loose than a manifesto pledge, we can't differentiate between the bits of a manifesto the public agreed with or disagreed with when they voted for a party on an individual basis now can we, nor can we rightly expect every pledge to be achieved, though we can expect them to be attempted. But we have to assume a mandate. And being a central policy in both the remain and leave camps, with regard to curbing free movement for remain being rejected in the remain "manifesto" more than curbing should be expected at a minimum, with ending free movement being central to the leave campaign also. Now while neither of the options state ending single market access, they both necessitate it for reasons beyond our control. Which is why we arrive where we are and will leave the single market and attempt to create EEA-. Parliament cannot influence if get that or not and it should not try to overide the people they represent. All a vote can do is hinder the negotiation. It's not perfect, but it's perfectly logical in the presence of asymmetrical knowledge due to reality, it's as perfect as can be reasonably established.
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by bimboman »

it was a monolithically white culture back then. The Irish are outward-looking and choose to focus on the benefits of migration.
Indeed all those poles and Latvians with their funny ways. :lol:
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by dr dre2 »

bimboman wrote:
it was a monolithically white culture back then. The Irish are outward-looking and choose to focus on the benefits of migration.
Indeed all those poles and Latvians with their funny ways. :lol:
You have very little migration, it's a new thing and you're still on the part of the curve where it's still a benefit to you. In just about every place in the Western world who've been under real pressure from immigration there is a strong and growing movement to counter it. You are not super human, super nice. Do you remember the roaring argument on here when I pointed out a report of "white flight" in Ireland, where a headmaster had written a report on it occurring had got all excited about a 1st world problem but by the time anybody had read it all the Poles had f*cked off home because their economy tanked.
Locked