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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:59 pm 
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[quote="sorCrer"]
The end game is not to have more $USD it's to have more BTC (or other major market cap crypto)[/quote]


And it's a really weird endgame too. What's the point of it? It's a finite resource. The less dispersed the ownership the less liquid, the less useful and the less valuable. And that's assuming it eventually gets a use in the first place.

You're treating it like gold. It's not gold.

Let me ask you this: how rich would you be if owned all of the Bitcoins?


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 7:20 pm 
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What I've been doing is minute trading selling on RSI crossovers (sometimes preempting crossovers with a guess confident the market is falling) and following this with a trailing stop buy at a couple of $. Normally around the 1BTC mark per trade so make about 0.7% - 1%.

The end game is not to have more $USD it's to have more BTC (or other major market cap crypto)


But if you knew this collapse was coming you'd have doubled your BTC holding if you'd sold them then and bought them back today. It makes little sense not doing that IF you knew this was going to happen.

Plus the end game will still be valued in USD in your life time. Stop it.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 7:22 pm 
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goeagles wrote:
bimboman wrote:
goeagles wrote:
Bitcoin and the more general cryptomarket have gone through numerous crashes, with each one joyously declared the death of Bitcoin by various nocoiners, and a subsequent all time high for BTC following that. Is there any reason in particular that this is going to be the crash to end all crashes?



When would you say 60% losses had occurred 2013 ? Why did that happen ?


No idea what you're getting at here.



Bitcoin hasn't had one of its "numerous crashes " of this depth since 2013, so understanding what happened then , why it occurred etc would be useful now.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 7:28 pm 
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I get the feeling that there's a strange conflation of cryptos as currency and as securities. As if buying cryptos buys you access to an additional cash flow that is apart from the use of the crypto as a currency.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 7:34 pm 
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Santa wrote:
I get the feeling that there's a strange conflation of cryptos as currency and as securities. As if buying cryptos buys you access to an additional cash flow that is apart from the use of the crypto as a currency.



In the case of ripple and etherum that may eventually be true. Though of course as pointed out earlier at this point they cannot have trading vol in large amounts.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 7:40 pm 
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bimboman wrote:
goeagles wrote:
bimboman wrote:
goeagles wrote:
Bitcoin and the more general cryptomarket have gone through numerous crashes, with each one joyously declared the death of Bitcoin by various nocoiners, and a subsequent all time high for BTC following that. Is there any reason in particular that this is going to be the crash to end all crashes?



When would you say 60% losses had occurred 2013 ? Why did that happen ?


No idea what you're getting at here.



Bitcoin hasn't had one of its "numerous crashes " of this depth since 2013, so understanding what happened then , why it occurred etc would be useful now.


I'm not sure of the endgame but over the years seeing a couple of other bubbly investments blowing up, I wonder if BTC is heading there too.
In the 90's Guinness Peat Aviation (Aircraft Leasing) tried to do an IPO. There were doubts laid, and the finance sector backed off. The net result was GPA ended up destroyed as an entity. Their business model survived though. In particular through executives that had worked for the company. Aircraft Leasing is now a major industry. The investment money is coming from Japanese banks & investment Funds rather than IPO's.
In the 00's was Baltimore. Here I'm sure the technology ideas survived although the company did not.

So although there is a proper business model behind cryptos, and the fact BTC were first, it does not protect them from market sentiment. The loss of investment confidence along with technological advances of their competitors could finish it in the near term.


Last edited by Leinster in London on Mon Feb 05, 2018 7:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 7:43 pm 
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Santa wrote:
sorCrer wrote:
The end game is not to have more $USD it's to have more BTC (or other major market cap crypto)



And it's a really weird endgame too. What's the point of it? It's a finite resource. The less dispersed the ownership the less liquid, the less useful and the less valuable. And that's assuming it eventually gets a use in the first place.

You're treating it like gold. It's not gold.

Let me ask you this: how rich would you be if owned all of the Bitcoins?


I'm treating it like cryptocurrency. I speculate, hodl, code and buy stuff with it.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 7:51 pm 
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SEC Chairman Jay Clayton testimony today.


https://www.banking.senate.gov/public/? ... 894573D57D


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:02 pm 
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sorCrer wrote:
Santa wrote:
sorCrer wrote:
The end game is not to have more $USD it's to have more BTC (or other major market cap crypto)



And it's a really weird endgame too. What's the point of it? It's a finite resource. The less dispersed the ownership the less liquid, the less useful and the less valuable. And that's assuming it eventually gets a use in the first place.

You're treating it like gold. It's not gold.

Let me ask you this: how rich would you be if owned all of the Bitcoins?


I'm treating it like cryptocurrency. I speculate, hodl, code and buy stuff with it.


Thats all valued in USD.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:07 pm 
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bimboman wrote:
sorCrer wrote:
Santa wrote:
sorCrer wrote:
The end game is not to have more $USD it's to have more BTC (or other major market cap crypto)



And it's a really weird endgame too. What's the point of it? It's a finite resource. The less dispersed the ownership the less liquid, the less useful and the less valuable. And that's assuming it eventually gets a use in the first place.

You're treating it like gold. It's not gold.

Let me ask you this: how rich would you be if owned all of the Bitcoins?


I'm treating it like cryptocurrency. I speculate, hodl, code and buy stuff with it.


Thats all valued in USD.


Well, yes. Everything can pretty much be valued in USD. Although it's quite common amongst traders to value in Sats.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:13 pm 
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My point is you'll need USD or a currency equivalent .... You don't view your self as having lost money in the last week, but in your eventual plan of being long BTC you have, the book value has halved in any real trading terms you've lost money.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:47 pm 
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bimboman wrote:
My point is you'll need USD or a currency equivalent .... You don't view your self as having lost money in the last week, but in your eventual plan of being long BTC you have, the book value has halved in any real trading terms you've lost money.


The largest part (+80%) of my portfolio was bought at $350 - $600. The price of Bitcoin on this date one year ago was $1017. I bought the bulk of my XRP holdings at 0.06c


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:53 pm 
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sorCrer wrote:
bimboman wrote:
My point is you'll need USD or a currency equivalent .... You don't view your self as having lost money in the last week, but in your eventual plan of being long BTC you have, the book value has halved in any real trading terms you've lost money.


The largest part (+80%) of my portfolio was bought at $350 - $600. The price of Bitcoin on this date one year ago was $1017. I bought the bulk of my XRP holdings at 0.06c



Great, you are missing my point, if you sold all of it at $17,000 and bought them back today you'd have made a big profit. You seem to miss that traditional investments have their returns measuresd periodically against a new set price , if you don't do that performance isn't correctly measured.

As I've said to you before if you've a few million in coins sell some and buy real,world stuff with it.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 9:04 pm 
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bimboman wrote:
sorCrer wrote:
bimboman wrote:
My point is you'll need USD or a currency equivalent .... You don't view your self as having lost money in the last week, but in your eventual plan of being long BTC you have, the book value has halved in any real trading terms you've lost money.


The largest part (+80%) of my portfolio was bought at $350 - $600. The price of Bitcoin on this date one year ago was $1017. I bought the bulk of my XRP holdings at 0.06c



Great, you are missing my point, if you sold all of it at $17,000 and bought them back today you'd have made a big profit. You seem to miss that traditional investments have their returns measuresd periodically against a new set price , if you don't do that performance isn't correctly measured.

As I've said to you before if you've a few million in coins sell some and buy real,world stuff with it.


Roughly in agreement with you on this one insofar as that the value of a currency is only worth what you can buy with it. Of course if the USD tanked and I was able to buy less with the same amount of USD as previously, that would be similar. If I'm long-term bullish on anything, whether it's USD, Bitcoin, houses or even some random collectible, my goal would be to increase my holdings of that asset or asset class.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 9:09 pm 
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bimboman wrote:
sorCrer wrote:
bimboman wrote:
My point is you'll need USD or a currency equivalent .... You don't view your self as having lost money in the last week, but in your eventual plan of being long BTC you have, the book value has halved in any real trading terms you've lost money.


The largest part (+80%) of my portfolio was bought at $350 - $600. The price of Bitcoin on this date one year ago was $1017. I bought the bulk of my XRP holdings at 0.06c



Great, you are missing my point, if you sold all of it at $17,000 and bought them back today you'd have made a big profit. You seem to miss that traditional investments have their returns measuresd periodically against a new set price , if you don't do that performance isn't correctly measured.

As I've said to you before if you've a few million in coins sell some and buy real,world stuff with it.


I did that before. There isn't really much that I can buy that will make me happier.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 9:29 pm 
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sorCrer wrote:
bimboman wrote:
sorCrer wrote:
bimboman wrote:
My point is you'll need USD or a currency equivalent .... You don't view your self as having lost money in the last week, but in your eventual plan of being long BTC you have, the book value has halved in any real trading terms you've lost money.


The largest part (+80%) of my portfolio was bought at $350 - $600. The price of Bitcoin on this date one year ago was $1017. I bought the bulk of my XRP holdings at 0.06c



Great, you are missing my point, if you sold all of it at $17,000 and bought them back today you'd have made a big profit. You seem to miss that traditional investments have their returns measuresd periodically against a new set price , if you don't do that performance isn't correctly measured.

As I've said to you before if you've a few million in coins sell some and buy real,world stuff with it.


I did that before. There isn't really much that I can buy that will make me happier.


If you've got enough for your lifestyle and old age right now then why not. If you're trading though you need to sell into these dips if you can really see them coming. You will get more points.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 9:32 pm 
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goeagles wrote:
bimboman wrote:
sorCrer wrote:
bimboman wrote:
My point is you'll need USD or a currency equivalent .... You don't view your self as having lost money in the last week, but in your eventual plan of being long BTC you have, the book value has halved in any real trading terms you've lost money.


The largest part (+80%) of my portfolio was bought at $350 - $600. The price of Bitcoin on this date one year ago was $1017. I bought the bulk of my XRP holdings at 0.06c



Great, you are missing my point, if you sold all of it at $17,000 and bought them back today you'd have made a big profit. You seem to miss that traditional investments have their returns measuresd periodically against a new set price , if you don't do that performance isn't correctly measured.

As I've said to you before if you've a few million in coins sell some and buy real,world stuff with it.


Roughly in agreement with you on this one insofar as that the value of a currency is only worth what you can buy with it. Of course if the USD tanked and I was able to buy less with the same amount of USD as previously, that would be similar. If I'm long-term bullish on anything, whether it's USD, Bitcoin, houses or even some random collectible, my goal would be to increase my holdings of that asset or asset class.



Long term bullish is great but if you're trading with any aim to profit then selling into dips and buying back is standard. Unless you just keep going longer as it falls which makes sense if you believe in an eventual $million Bitcoin.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 9:52 pm 
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bimboman wrote:
goeagles wrote:
bimboman wrote:
sorCrer wrote:
bimboman wrote:
My point is you'll need USD or a currency equivalent .... You don't view your self as having lost money in the last week, but in your eventual plan of being long BTC you have, the book value has halved in any real trading terms you've lost money.


The largest part (+80%) of my portfolio was bought at $350 - $600. The price of Bitcoin on this date one year ago was $1017. I bought the bulk of my XRP holdings at 0.06c



Great, you are missing my point, if you sold all of it at $17,000 and bought them back today you'd have made a big profit. You seem to miss that traditional investments have their returns measuresd periodically against a new set price , if you don't do that performance isn't correctly measured.

As I've said to you before if you've a few million in coins sell some and buy real,world stuff with it.


Roughly in agreement with you on this one insofar as that the value of a currency is only worth what you can buy with it. Of course if the USD tanked and I was able to buy less with the same amount of USD as previously, that would be similar. If I'm long-term bullish on anything, whether it's USD, Bitcoin, houses or even some random collectible, my goal would be to increase my holdings of that asset or asset class.



Long term bullish is great but if you're trading with any aim to profit then selling into dips and buying back is standard. Unless you just keep going longer as it falls which makes sense if you believe in an eventual $million Bitcoin.


Agreed.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:59 pm 
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Quote:
Comfortably Smug
‏ @ComfortablySmug
2m2 minutes ago

Pretty obvious why stocks are down.

After bitcoin's collapse, the machines were enraged humanity rejected their robot money. They wanted revenge, so they told the algorithms to sell.

And now, the War Against the Robots, begins.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 12:05 am 
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The talk on here is very reminiscent of the chartists. They pretend real world events do not matter. Real world events like individual countries cracking down on coins / exchanges, the tax man getting real interested in breaking peoples balls, hundreds of millions being robbed online etc. No, let's look at a nice graph guys, ignore the real world, look I made that line red and that arrow I added is pointing up


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:50 am 
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The drop on the stockmarket was something else yesterday
S&P futures intra-day high was about 2762. It's now 2537


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 12:17 pm 
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sewa wrote:
The talk on here is very reminiscent of the chartists. They pretend real world events do not matter. Real world events like individual countries cracking down on coins / exchanges, the tax man getting real interested in breaking peoples balls, hundreds of millions being robbed online etc. No, let's look at a nice graph guys, ignore the real world, look I made that line red and that arrow I added is pointing up


Really? Who is claiming real world events don’t matter or effect the market? Where were these statements posted on this thread? You come to that conclusion because I posted a chart. What exactly are you trying to contribute?


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 12:21 pm 
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Quote:
The chairman of the U.S. Commodity Futures Trading Commission (CFTC) has spoken of the need for balance and a "do no harm" approach when regulating cryptocurrencies.

In a written testimony presented to the Senate Banking Committee today, J. Christopher Giancarlo said that in this "new digital era" for the financial markets, cryptocurrencies have brought "paradigm shift" in how the world views payments and financial processes, and that ignoring such innovation "will not make them go away, nor is it a responsible regulatory response."

Giancarlo continued:

"'Do no harm' was unquestionably the right approach to development of the Internet. Similarly, I believe that 'do no harm' is the right overarching approach for distributed ledger technology. ... With the proper balance of sound policy, regulatory oversight and private sector innovation, new technologies will allow American markets to evolve in responsible ways and continue to grow our economy and increase prosperity."

That's not to say the CFTC will sit back and do nothing, however. The commission chair spelled out how his agency has previously taken civil enforcement actions against several "virtual currency Ponzi schemes," including My Big Coin Pay Inc, The Entrepreneurs Headquarters Limited and Coin Drop Markets.

These actions confirm, he said, that the CFTC, in conjunction with the SEC and other financial enforcement agencies, will protect investors and "aggressively prosecute" cryptocurrency schemes that engage in fraud and manipulation.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 12:44 pm 
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sewa wrote:
The talk on here is very reminiscent of the chartists. They pretend real world events do not matter. Real world events like individual countries cracking down on coins / exchanges, the tax man getting real interested in breaking peoples balls, hundreds of millions being robbed online etc. No, let's look at a nice graph guys, ignore the real world, look I made that line red and that arrow I added is pointing up


Why do you insist in commenting on areas that you are obviously clueless about. You come across rather silly. What perimeters, for example , would you think that algorithm traders might programme into their systems without looking at moving averages or support and resistance levels. Relative strength indicators and Stochastic indicators. All these signals help give a Fundamental trader an insight into projected price patterns and trends and only a fool ignores them.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 12:45 pm 
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Where is this headed now, down to $4,000 or lower?


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 1:01 pm 
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Rumham wrote:
Where is this headed now, down to $4,000 or lower?


Can't be sure but 6200 looks like serious support. Bear in mind that it will only go down to the level of the early adopters and hodlers buy in. A lot of us are here for the tech.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 1:17 pm 
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sorCrer wrote:
Rumham wrote:
Where is this headed now, down to $4,000 or lower?


Can't be sure but 6200 looks like serious support. Bear in mind that it will only go down to the level of the early adopters and hodlers buy in. A lot of us are here for the tech.


That's a lot lower than $4,000 then.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 1:26 pm 
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sorCrer wrote:
Rumham wrote:
Where is this headed now, down to $4,000 or lower?


Can't be sure but 6200 looks like serious support. Bear in mind that it will only go down to the level of the early adopters and hodlers buy in. A lot of us are here for the tech.



You're ignoring the ability to "short" into this price.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 1:27 pm 
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sorCrer wrote:
Rumham wrote:
Where is this headed now, down to $4,000 or lower?


Can't be sure but 6200 looks like serious support. Bear in mind that it will only go down to the level of the early adopters and hodlers buy in. A lot of us are here for the tech.

Or, alternatively, a lot of the early lot cashed out when it was going nuts


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 1:53 pm 
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croyals wrote:
sorCrer wrote:
Rumham wrote:
Where is this headed now, down to $4,000 or lower?


Can't be sure but 6200 looks like serious support. Bear in mind that it will only go down to the level of the early adopters and hodlers buy in. A lot of us are here for the tech.

Or, alternatively, a lot of the early lot cashed out when it was going nuts


No we didn't. We're adopting the technology.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 1:54 pm 
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Seneca of the Night wrote:
sorCrer wrote:
Rumham wrote:
Where is this headed now, down to $4,000 or lower?


Can't be sure but 6200 looks like serious support. Bear in mind that it will only go down to the level of the early adopters and hodlers buy in. A lot of us are here for the tech.


You don't have to buy Bitcoin to have access to the tech.


In order for the BTC blockchain to work, somebody has to pay for the decentralised mining.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:06 pm 
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sorCrer wrote:
Seneca of the Night wrote:
sorCrer wrote:
Rumham wrote:
Where is this headed now, down to $4,000 or lower?


Can't be sure but 6200 looks like serious support. Bear in mind that it will only go down to the level of the early adopters and hodlers buy in. A lot of us are here for the tech.


You don't have to buy Bitcoin to have access to the tech.


In order for the BTC blockchain to work, somebody has to pay for the decentralised mining.


But plenty O block chain isn't BTC .....


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:48 pm 
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bimboman wrote:
sorCrer wrote:
Seneca of the Night wrote:
sorCrer wrote:
Rumham wrote:
Where is this headed now, down to $4,000 or lower?


Can't be sure but 6200 looks like serious support. Bear in mind that it will only go down to the level of the early adopters and hodlers buy in. A lot of us are here for the tech.


You don't have to buy Bitcoin to have access to the tech.


In order for the BTC blockchain to work, somebody has to pay for the decentralised mining.


But plenty O block chain isn't BTC .....


I presume you mean you don't have to use specifically Bitcoin Blockchain. No, you're not forced too. But you have to pay gas (ether) to run smart contracts on the Ethereum Blockchain which is awarded to the miner.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:49 pm 
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Seneca of the Night wrote:
bimboman wrote:
sorCrer wrote:
Seneca of the Night wrote:
sorCrer wrote:

Can't be sure but 6200 looks like serious support. Bear in mind that it will only go down to the level of the early adopters and hodlers buy in. A lot of us are here for the tech.


You don't have to buy Bitcoin to have access to the tech.


In order for the BTC blockchain to work, somebody has to pay for the decentralised mining.


But plenty O block chain isn't BTC .....


It's exasperating.


What's exasperating is your complete lack of technological understanding coupled recently with useless ad hominem attacks. Sounds like you're more of a talker than a doer.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:50 pm 
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sorCrer wrote:
bimboman wrote:
sorCrer wrote:
Seneca of the Night wrote:
sorCrer wrote:

Can't be sure but 6200 looks like serious support. Bear in mind that it will only go down to the level of the early adopters and hodlers buy in. A lot of us are here for the tech.


You don't have to buy Bitcoin to have access to the tech.


In order for the BTC blockchain to work, somebody has to pay for the decentralised mining.


But plenty O block chain isn't BTC .....


I presume you mean you don't have to use specifically Bitcoin Blockchain. No, you're not forced too. But you have to pay gas (ether) to run smart contracts on the Ethereum Blockchain which is awarded to the miner.


Nano has no mining and no one is paid to confirm the transaction.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:57 pm 
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goeagles wrote:
Nano has no mining and no one is paid to confirm the transaction.


Correct although they seem to think it will run on the goodwill of people. i.e donations etc


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:57 pm 
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Quote:
I presume you mean you don't have to use specifically Bitcoin Blockchain. No, you're not forced too. But you have to pay gas (ether) to run smart contracts on the Ethereum Blockchain which is awarded to the miner.



How much per contract do you think it will cost ?

Other chains can run smart contracts can't they (typing "smart" made me cringe) , it's just a bloody contract.

The other issue is we are back to circular dilemma ; if the contract is uber successful then a lower coin price has to be demanded for the success to continue or the stuff will be taken to a private chain.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:01 pm 
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sorCrer wrote:
goeagles wrote:
Nano has no mining and no one is paid to confirm the transaction.


Correct although they seem to think it will run on the goodwill of people. i.e donations etc


No need for donations unless you consider someone running a node to be a donation. Most nodes would be expected to be run by businesses, although at the moment they are mostly run by Nano holders/enthusiasts.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:08 pm 
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bimboman wrote:
Quote:
I presume you mean you don't have to use specifically Bitcoin Blockchain. No, you're not forced too. But you have to pay gas (ether) to run smart contracts on the Ethereum Blockchain which is awarded to the miner.



How much per contract do you think it will cost ?

Other chains can run smart contracts can't they (typing "smart" made me cringe) , it's just a bloody contract.

The other issue is we are back to circular dilemma ; if the contract is uber successful then a lower coin price has to be demanded for the success to continue or the stuff will be taken to a private chain.


It varies depending on processing power required. They're called smart contracts because they don't need human intervention once deployed. The contract itself can do things like get weather data or teh result of a horse race etc and action on this data.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:26 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
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sorCrer wrote:
bimboman wrote:
Quote:
I presume you mean you don't have to use specifically Bitcoin Blockchain. No, you're not forced too. But you have to pay gas (ether) to run smart contracts on the Ethereum Blockchain which is awarded to the miner.



How much per contract do you think it will cost ?

Other chains can run smart contracts can't they (typing "smart" made me cringe) , it's just a bloody contract.

The other issue is we are back to circular dilemma ; if the contract is uber successful then a lower coin price has to be demanded for the success to continue or the stuff will be taken to a private chain.


It varies depending on processing power required. They're called smart contracts because they don't need human intervention once deployed. The contract itself can do things like get weather data or teh result of a horse race etc and action on this data.



My point is it cannot rest again in the market price of a coin. Do you sort of agree that the cost has to be commensurate to the benefit.

I understand it can take variables in an automated fashion. However it makes me cringe.


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