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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:23 pm 
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Bowens wrote:
bimboman wrote:
Bowens wrote:
I'm aware no one was killed (Trump and Bolton wanted a much bigger strike BTW). Again, do you think this is a one-off? No, it's designed to provoke a response.



It's absolutely designed to provoke the response of not using bloody chemical weapons. You're clearly ignoring any response that would change your views and come across as a bit of a zealot.


That's not my intention. Again, I have worked with lots of everyday Syrians and have been humbled by their work ethic and generosity. I don't want their country bombed to rubble. A week ago we were going to leave Assad alone then a chemical attack? Sorry, doesn't wash.



"Bombed to rubble" , or a targeted attack , pre ordered as a demonstration.


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:25 pm 
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Bowens wrote:
bimboman wrote:
Bowens wrote:
I'm aware no one was killed (Trump and Bolton wanted a much bigger strike BTW). Again, do you think this is a one-off? No, it's designed to provoke a response.



It's absolutely designed to provoke the response of not using bloody chemical weapons. You're clearly ignoring any response that would change your views and come across as a bit of a zealot.


That's not my intention. Again, I have worked with lots of everyday Syrians and have been humbled by their work ethic and generosity. I don't want their country bombed to rubble. A week ago we were going to leave Assad alone then a chemical attack? Sorry, doesn't wash.


Exactly. The handful of bombs that the US, UK and France dropped on Syria have reduced their country to rubble. Whereas the thousands that Russia and Syria have dropped have mostl been performing landscape gardening.


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:27 pm 
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A5D5E5 wrote:
Bowens wrote:
bimboman wrote:
Bowens wrote:
I'm aware no one was killed (Trump and Bolton wanted a much bigger strike BTW). Again, do you think this is a one-off? No, it's designed to provoke a response.



It's absolutely designed to provoke the response of not using bloody chemical weapons. You're clearly ignoring any response that would change your views and come across as a bit of a zealot.


That's not my intention. Again, I have worked with lots of everyday Syrians and have been humbled by their work ethic and generosity. I don't want their country bombed to rubble. A week ago we were going to leave Assad alone then a chemical attack? Sorry, doesn't wash.


Exactly. The handful of bombs that the US, UK and France dropped on Syria have reduced their country to rubble. Whereas the thousands that Russia and Syria have dropped have mostl been performing landscape gardening.


That's a pretty disingenuous take. This is the beginning in my view, I clarified that several times above. No war with Syria. No war with Iran. Assad killing head-choppers is fine by me.


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:36 pm 
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Its pretty clear Putin's plan is to cause carnage in Syria to absolutely flood Europe with Refugees from the ME along with African opportunists to cause internal conflicts and destabilise Europe, hes doing a damn good job tbf


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:41 pm 
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Quote:
That's a pretty disingenuous take. This is the beginning in my view, I clarified that several times above. No war with Syria. No war with Iran. Assad killing head-choppers is fine by me.




Yeah they've demonstrated a big start by phoning through their intentions and sending missles to a few warehouses, nothing says war than that type of limited demonstration ...


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:43 pm 
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Trump and Bolton wanted a bigger strike. Just repeating myself now.


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:44 pm 
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Bowens wrote:
Trump and Bolton wanted a bigger strike. Just repeating myself now.



You keep saying this, what's that based on ?


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:46 pm 
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First link I grabbed. There are more if you need further convincing.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/trump-seek ... 1523651589

Edit: or in simple tweet form... https://mobile.twitter.com/jimsciutto/s ... 9103928322


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:51 pm 
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Bowens wrote:
First link I grabbed. There are more if you need further convincing.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/trump-seek ... 1523651589



I find the WSJ particularly accurate where Trump is concerned .... Anything from Trump himself?

I bet CNN's a doozy.

Anything from the governemnt ?


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:53 pm 
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Anything from the WH that they had internal disagreements? No, of course not. :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:57 pm 
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For those dismissive of the atrocities committed by the Assad regime as killing "head choppers" this https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/04/18/bashar-al-assads-war-crimes-exposed is a good read, by good I mean horrifying, about what has been going on and the efforts to document the regime's crimes.

It's a couple of years old but I doubt things have got much better.


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:59 pm 
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Bobless wrote:
For those dismissive of the atrocities committed by the Assad regime as killing "head choppers" this https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/04/18/bashar-al-assads-war-crimes-exposed is a good read, by good I mean horrifying, about what has been going on and the efforts to document the regime's crimes.

It's a couple of years old but I doubt things have got much better.



I'm confused now, is he a bad guy who should have his ability to use gas with impunity encouraged or not ?


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:00 pm 
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Bowens wrote:
Anything from the WH that they had internal disagreements? No, of course not. :lol:



So your opinion is framed entirely by his critics ?


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:02 pm 
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bimboman wrote:
Bowens wrote:
Anything from the WH that they had internal disagreements? No, of course not. :lol:



So your opinion is framed entirely by his critics ?

His opinion is framed by his view of Trump.

Trump's not great but I really hope his view of syria isn't because of him etc etc.


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:04 pm 
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Wendigo7 wrote:
bimboman wrote:
Bowens wrote:
Anything from the WH that they had internal disagreements? No, of course not. :lol:



So your opinion is framed entirely by his critics ?

His opinion is framed by his view of Trump.

Trump's not great but I really hope his view of syria isn't because of him etc etc.



My view of trump is pretty low, though I try to avoid the hyperbole exercised by many in the media and on PR.


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:08 pm 
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Seneca of the Night wrote:
I think what will be dawning surely now on much of the American people is that they don't have a scintilla of control over the foreign policy of the country, and no matter what they do, it seems to go the same way.

It's extremely difficult to assess with any degree of accuracy what Trump's motives are, but I still hold out hope that this is a sharp triangulation manoevre to shake the Russia hawks from his tail for a moment. He appears to be in full deal mode now.

But he now needs to zag back sharply to his base. At some stage down the line (post Trump) you wonder if a General isn't going to seize control of this situation and take the armed forces back for the American people, as there seems to be a very deep disconnect between what the people want (and who man the forces) and the wars they are deployed for.



You think the complexity of US foreign policy should be controlled by stupid people living 1,000 km from even an ocean let alone a foreign country ?


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:15 pm 
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goose81 wrote:
Its pretty clear Putin's plan is to cause carnage in Syria to absolutely flood Europe with Refugees from the ME along with African opportunists to cause internal conflicts and destabilise Europe, hes doing a damn good job tbf



Jesus. A new madness ...

:lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:16 pm 
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Bowens wrote:
A5D5E5 wrote:
Bowens wrote:
bimboman wrote:
Bowens wrote:
I'm aware no one was killed (Trump and Bolton wanted a much bigger strike BTW). Again, do you think this is a one-off? No, it's designed to provoke a response.



It's absolutely designed to provoke the response of not using bloody chemical weapons. You're clearly ignoring any response that would change your views and come across as a bit of a zealot.


That's not my intention. Again, I have worked with lots of everyday Syrians and have been humbled by their work ethic and generosity. I don't want their country bombed to rubble. A week ago we were going to leave Assad alone then a chemical attack? Sorry, doesn't wash.


Exactly. The handful of bombs that the US, UK and France dropped on Syria have reduced their country to rubble. Whereas the thousands that Russia and Syria have dropped have mostl been performing landscape gardening.


That's a pretty disingenuous take. This is the beginning in my view, I clarified that several times above. No war with Syria. No war with Iran. Assad killing head-choppers is fine by me.


Syria must have had the highest concentration of women and children "head choppers" anywhere in the world. Perhaps he should be given a small award for his contribution to ridding the world from the tyranny of 3 year olds.


Last edited by A5D5E5 on Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:17 pm 
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bimboman wrote:
You think the complexity of US foreign policy should be controlled by stupid people living 1,000 km from even an ocean let alone a foreign country ?


And there we have it. Another guy who thinks he's better than people. But by all means, go into a working man's bar in Chicago or St Louis and try that shtick.


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:20 pm 
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bimboman wrote:
Seneca of the Night wrote:
I think what will be dawning surely now on much of the American people is that they don't have a scintilla of control over the foreign policy of the country, and no matter what they do, it seems to go the same way.

It's extremely difficult to assess with any degree of accuracy what Trump's motives are, but I still hold out hope that this is a sharp triangulation manoevre to shake the Russia hawks from his tail for a moment. He appears to be in full deal mode now.

But he now needs to zag back sharply to his base. At some stage down the line (post Trump) you wonder if a General isn't going to seize control of this situation and take the armed forces back for the American people, as there seems to be a very deep disconnect between what the people want (and who man the forces) and the wars they are deployed for.



You think the complexity of US foreign policy should be controlled by stupid people living 1,000 km from even an ocean let alone a foreign country ?



Many many countries are big enough for that - we all do not live on an itty bitty island ...


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:20 pm 
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A5D5E5 wrote:
Bowens wrote:
A5D5E5 wrote:
Bowens wrote:
bimboman wrote:
It's absolutely designed to provoke the response of not using bloody chemical weapons. You're clearly ignoring any response that would change your views and come across as a bit of a zealot.


That's not my intention. Again, I have worked with lots of everyday Syrians and have been humbled by their work ethic and generosity. I don't want their country bombed to rubble. A week ago we were going to leave Assad alone then a chemical attack? Sorry, doesn't wash.


Exactly. The handful of bombs that the US, UK and France dropped on Syria have reduced their country to rubble. Whereas the thousands that Russia and Syria have dropped have mostl been performing landscape gardening.


That's a pretty disingenuous take. This is the beginning in my view, I clarified that several times above. No war with Syria. No war with Iran. Assad killing head-choppers is fine by me.


Syria must have had the highest concentration of women and children "head choppers" anywhere in the world. Perhaps he should be given a small award for his contribution to ridding the world from the tyranny of 3 year olds.


This is kind of a throwaway line. Did you have something more to say? Any stats to corroborate that he is a butcher of women and children worse than the scum who sold tens of thousands of Yazidi girls into slavery after butchering (literally) their brothers and fathers?


Last edited by Bowens on Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:20 pm 
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Wilson's Toffee wrote:
goose81 wrote:
Its pretty clear Putin's plan is to cause carnage in Syria to absolutely flood Europe with Refugees from the ME along with African opportunists to cause internal conflicts and destabilise Europe, hes doing a damn good job tbf



Jesus. A new madness ...

:lol:


What other reason could he possibly have to keep propping up the regime, the only result has been condemnation and poor refugees fleeing the place causing huge rows between European governments.. :?


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:28 pm 
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Bowens wrote:
That's a pretty disingenuous take. This is the beginning in my view, I clarified that several times above. No war with Syria. No war with Iran. Assad killing head-choppers is fine by me.


That's a pretty gross misunderstanding, or misrepresentation of what has been going on in Syria.


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:30 pm 
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goose81 wrote:
Wilson's Toffee wrote:
goose81 wrote:
Its pretty clear Putin's plan is to cause carnage in Syria to absolutely flood Europe with Refugees from the ME along with African opportunists to cause internal conflicts and destabilise Europe, hes doing a damn good job tbf



Jesus. A new madness ...

:lol:


What other reason could he possibly have to keep propping up the regime, the only result has been condemnation and poor refugees fleeing the place causing huge rows between European governments.. :?



He does not like to see the good doctor being bullied by the cruel West and her Israeli, Saudi and Turkish allies... He is a true democrat and a fair man...


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:34 pm 
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Bowens wrote:
A5D5E5 wrote:
Bowens wrote:
A5D5E5 wrote:
Bowens wrote:
That's not my intention. Again, I have worked with lots of everyday Syrians and have been humbled by their work ethic and generosity. I don't want their country bombed to rubble. A week ago we were going to leave Assad alone then a chemical attack? Sorry, doesn't wash.


Exactly. The handful of bombs that the US, UK and France dropped on Syria have reduced their country to rubble. Whereas the thousands that Russia and Syria have dropped have mostl been performing landscape gardening.


That's a pretty disingenuous take. This is the beginning in my view, I clarified that several times above. No war with Syria. No war with Iran. Assad killing head-choppers is fine by me.


Syria must have had the highest concentration of women and children "head choppers" anywhere in the world. Perhaps he should be given a small award for his contribution to ridding the world from the tyranny of 3 year olds.


This is kind of a throwaway line. Did you have something more to say? Any stats to corroborate that he is a butcher of women and children worse than the scum who sold tens of thousands of Yazidi girls into slavery after butchering (literally) their brothers and fathers?


So you are not even going for an "Assad is also a prick" line, but are a fully paid up member of the "Assad is the good guy" camp.

There isnt even any point sbowing you evidence is there - you will have seen it all before and dismissed it as lies, misinformation and western false flags.


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:34 pm 
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Turbogoat wrote:
Bowens wrote:
That's a pretty disingenuous take. This is the beginning in my view, I clarified that several times above. No war with Syria. No war with Iran. Assad killing head-choppers is fine by me.


That's a pretty gross misunderstanding, or misrepresentation of what has been going on in Syria.


I respect that you put yourself on the line but your political views are pretty clear. You think the thread about Saudi relaxing women's dress codes wasn't transparent? As well as your links to the corrupt Barzani regime? No thanks man. Not interested in what you have to say there.


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:36 pm 
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Bowens wrote:
Turbogoat wrote:
Bowens wrote:
That's a pretty disingenuous take. This is the beginning in my view, I clarified that several times above. No war with Syria. No war with Iran. Assad killing head-choppers is fine by me.


That's a pretty gross misunderstanding, or misrepresentation of what has been going on in Syria.


I respect that you put yourself on the line but your political views are pretty clear. You think the thread about Saudi relaxing women's dress codes wasn't transparent? As well as your links to the corrupt Barzani regime? No thanks man. Not interested in what you have to say there.



:lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:39 pm 
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Bowens wrote:
bimboman wrote:
You think the complexity of US foreign policy should be controlled by stupid people living 1,000 km from even an ocean let alone a foreign country ?


And there we have it. Another guy who thinks he's better than people. But by all means, go into a working man's bar in Chicago or St Louis and try that shtick.



how long would I have to give them to find Syria on a map ?


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:41 pm 
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https://medium.com/@zacharygeorgenajari ... 200df8909d

"The 51st State".

Ja. Strange things abound on this earth ...


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:47 pm 
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Bowens wrote:
Turbogoat wrote:
Bowens wrote:
That's a pretty disingenuous take. This is the beginning in my view, I clarified that several times above. No war with Syria. No war with Iran. Assad killing head-choppers is fine by me.


That's a pretty gross misunderstanding, or misrepresentation of what has been going on in Syria.


I respect that you put yourself on the line but your political views are pretty clear. You think the thread about Saudi relaxing women's dress codes wasn't transparent? As well as your links to the corrupt Barzani regime? No thanks man. Not interested in what you have to say there.


Good grief, what a bizarre response. Your imagination about my supposed political stance is way off base, and even then still utterly irrelevant to your glossing over of the atrocities occurring in Syria. At least you confirmed that you're utterly close minded about this, no point in wasting any more time on you.


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:52 pm 
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You regularly posted Rudaw links, what is anyone supposed to think? I don't think you're a bad guy at all, I have told you in the past how much I admire what you do. But ME political analysis? Sorry, no, it comes from an all too predictable place.

And if I'm wrong TG, tell me how wrong you think Saudi action in Yemen, interference in Lebanon, and antagonism toward Iran is. As well as the lie that Iranian militias were the cause of Kurdistan's independence collapse rather than Barzani's greed.


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:56 pm 
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Bowens wrote:
You regularly posted Rudaw links, what is anyone supposed to think? I don't think you're a bad guy at all, I have told you in the past how much I admire what you do. But ME political analysis? Sorry, no, it comes from an all too predictable place.

And if I'm wrong TG, tell me how wrong you think Saudi action in Yemen, interference in Lebanon, and antagonism toward Iran is. As well as the lie that Iranian militias were the cause of Kurdistan's independence collapse rather than Barzani's greed.


Give me one indication that you're even remotely openminded about hearing a response, because you're so keen on reading so damn much into Rudaw links (FFS!) that engaging with you on this seems utterly pointless.

FTR: Saudi is a pack of arseholes for what they've done to Yemen. Saudi influence/interference throughout the region is a cancer, and Barzani is a plum. There. Do you believe a word of it? Probably not, but at least we aren't discussing your attempts to whitewash the atrocities committed on Syrian civilians by Assad& Co, are we.


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:59 pm 
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I'm glad you agree they're all shitbags. Which is why their enemy Assad shouldn't go anywhere.


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:02 pm 
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Bowens wrote:
I'm glad you agree they're all shitbags. Which is why their enemy Assad shouldn't go anywhere.


The enemy of my enemy is a f**king appalling foreign policy.

Are you able to at least state that Assad is also a shitbag for his horrendous indiscriminate attacks on civilians, or are you going to continue to attempt to deflect this? C'mon, your turn.


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:09 pm 
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If we could turn back the clock, we shouldn't have deposed Gaddafi and probably Hussein. So while no one is trying to whitewash what Assad has done, he is a more reliable leader in the region than anyone who would fill the vacuum after another "Mission Accomplished" fuckup (Trump actually tweeted that a few days ago :blush:).

I know we agree that Bolton needs to go, and I genuinely hope your job doesn't get any more dangerous as a result of his actions. :thumbup:


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:11 pm 
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Bowens wrote:
If we could turn back the clock, we shouldn't have deposed Gaddafi and probably Hussein. So while no one is trying to whitewash what Assad has done, he is a more reliable leader in the region than anyone who would fill the vacuum after another "Mission Accomplished" fuckup (Trump actually tweeted that a few days ago :blush:).

I know we agree that Bolton needs to go, and I genuinely hope your job doesn't get any more dangerous as a result of his actions. :thumbup:



We should leave dictators that murder their own populations with chemical weapons just to carry on ?


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:12 pm 
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Bowens wrote:
If we could turn back the clock, we shouldn't have deposed Gaddafi and probably Hussein. So while no one is trying to whitewash what Assad has done, he is a more reliable leader in the region than anyone who would fill the vacuum after another "Mission Accomplished" fuckup (Trump actually tweeted that a few days ago :blush:).

I know we agree that Bolton needs to go, and I genuinely hope your job doesn't get any more dangerous as a result of his actions. :thumbup:


So no. You can't say anything bad about Assad for slaughtering civilians. At least we know where you're coming from now.


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:15 pm 
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Moving on, it appears that NeoCon Classic - John Bolton wanted to launch a massive bombing raid. Thanfully Mattis (the bloke with actual combat experience) was the voice of reason.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/trump-seek ... 1523651589

if you can't access that one,.. try ... Vox. (Sorry)

https://www.vox.com/world/2018/4/16/172 ... ump-bolton


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:16 pm 
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Libya has been utterly disastrous for Europe (and Libya, and most of all the poor sub-Saharan migrants who end up there). I definitely won't want anyone who disagrees in government.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-liby ... SKBN1GX1JY


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:17 pm 
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Turbogoat wrote:
Moving on, it appears that NeoCon Classic - John Bolton wanted to launch a massive bombing raid. Thanfully Mattis (the bloke with actual combat experience) was the voice of reason.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/trump-seek ... 1523651589


Good article. Posted it earlier.


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