NZ Politics Thread

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RuggaBugga
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by RuggaBugga »

jono45 wrote:
Demilich wrote:
booji boy wrote:
Demilich wrote:
guy smiley wrote:You only pay CGT once, when and if you make a profit...

But the way the discussion is moving you’d think you were paying it every year on every dollar. It’s not going to hurt investments, it’s not going to destroy existing values. Life would go on more or less the same. You have one family home exempt if they do this and follow that model so you’re not being hurt on selling that either.

But the sky seems to be falling.
All the talk suggests that it won't be adjusted for inflation, which in reality means it's not just "profit" getting hit.

It also depends on whether they go with only taxing it when it is sold, or taxing paper profits. If it's the latter (which there is some talk that they may do for shares), and there are no deductions for losses, then you potentially pay capital gains tax on profits you never realise and will likely pay multiple times for the same "profit".

I suspect it will hurt investments, in the share-market at least, as it doesn't take much negativity at all to drive NZers away from any investment other than housing.

I'm not against a well implemented CGT, but I don't think it should exclude the family home, unless there are similar exclusions in other areas. Yes, I understand the family home is being used for a set purpose rather than just for investment, but the profit portion when selling it ARE investment gains (if adjusted for inflation). People aren't losing money by being taxed on their gains for the family home, any more than they are for being taxed on other investments.
Not excluding the family home would be political suicide for any party and even Taxcinda has been at pains to assure us the family home will be excluded. Economists think it should be included but fuck them. Most people sell to upgrade to another house. Imagine being taxed on the equity you've built up in your existing home that you are trying to put towards the purchase of your next home? What a crock!
You wouldn't be being taxed on the equity you "built up" in it though, just the capital gain (assuming that the value of actual improvements you do to the property are excluded). Any equity you yourself invested in it, wouldn't be being taxed. Only the capital gains on it. Exactly the same as for other investments.

It would be political suicide - but this is my entire issue with the thing - they are almost certainly not going to be interested in doing it "right" or fairly, if doing so has a negative impact on their political future.

And if it IS intended to be a way to shift capital away from property speculation, then just apply it to all non-family homes, and educate people on investing in something other than housing (rather than providing an exemption for your initial investment in the property market and no exemption on non-housing investments).
Also why not incentivise all the stupid people on low wages in unskilled work away from living in the most expensive areas such as AK
Someone should incentivise you to fuck off you smarmy prick.
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guy smiley
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by guy smiley »

jono45 wrote:
guy smiley wrote:
jono45 wrote:
jono45 wrote:
guy smiley wrote:By f**k you are stupid.

I bags we throw you at one of BillW's rich cnuts.
ok so whats stupid? How many people do you employ guy? Do yo supply 6+ figures of gst to the pot etc ,what do you do for a biscuit guy?
Come on guy drag yourself away from gloating over all the online articles regarding Tamati Coffeys baby news......
Go back and read what I said you muppet.
Oh go on guy ....indulge me , what general field of endeavour do you operate in ?
To back and read what was said and come back and apologise.

Then maybe.
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Enzedder
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Enzedder »

booji boy wrote:
Tehui wrote:
booji boy wrote:
Tehui wrote:Soimon Brudges & his wealthy cronies will inevitably indulge in scaremongering on the CGT subject over the next few months. The hysteria seems to be building with some on PR already.
Taxcinda and her cronies still have to get it past Winston too. Apparently he's not a fan.
Of course. Winston & Brudges' National colleagues own more properties per person than any other set of MPs. I wouldn't accuse them of being self-serving though.

;)
Oh of course! Not a single Labour MP would own any investment property would they. :lol:
I find it therefore very refreshing to find some honest MPs willing to even discuss CGT when they themselves may have to pay it. I bet f**king Winnie and his mob won't though.
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booji boy
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by booji boy »

Enzedder wrote:
booji boy wrote:
Tehui wrote:
booji boy wrote:
Tehui wrote:Soimon Brudges & his wealthy cronies will inevitably indulge in scaremongering on the CGT subject over the next few months. The hysteria seems to be building with some on PR already.
Taxcinda and her cronies still have to get it past Winston too. Apparently he's not a fan.
Of course. Winston & Brudges' National colleagues own more properties per person than any other set of MPs. I wouldn't accuse them of being self-serving though.

;)
Oh of course! Not a single Labour MP would own any investment property would they. :lol:
I find it therefore very refreshing to find some honest MPs willing to even discuss CGT when they themselves may have to pay it. I bet f**king Winnie and his mob won't though.
The former leader Andrew Little totally poo pooed it when he took over from Cunliffe.
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Enzedder
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Enzedder »

He is politically astute. Dull as dishwater but he knows about voters.

I think CGT could be very popular with the have-nots though; could well be worth a tick in the party box
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by jono45 »

For what....the smeg dripping thing?.....im still upset about the 2 heads comment
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by booji boy »

Enzedder wrote:He is politically astute. Dull as dishwater but he knows about voters.

I think CGT could be very popular with the have-nots though; could well be worth a tick in the party box
Yeah you're right. Those affected will oppose it. Those unaffected will approve. Imagine that? :shock:
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Gordon Bennett
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Gordon Bennett »

I don't care what side of the political divide you're on, jono's level of debate doesn't belong anywhere. It's like arguing with the lobotomised and does no one any credit. We were having a reasonable debate around how tax could change - involving people on both sides of the spectrum - before his participation.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by jono45 »

Gordon Bennett wrote:I don't care what side of the political divide you're on, jono's level of debate doesn't belong anywhere. It's like arguing with the lobotomised and does no one any credit. We were having a reasonable debate around how tax could change - involving people on both sides of the spectrum - before his participation.
Sorry old chap...i will go back to lurking....Guy i apologize unreservedly ( ?)
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maxbox
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by maxbox »

I thought you were a pom?
jono45
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by jono45 »

maxbox wrote:I thought you were a pom?
Gordon? Or me ?
BillW
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by BillW »

The pots and kettles have taken over.
jono45
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by jono45 »

BillW wrote:The pots and kettles have taken over.
Careful now
Wilderbeast
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Wilderbeast »

booji boy wrote:
Tehui wrote:Soimon Brudges & his wealthy cronies will inevitably indulge in scaremongering on the CGT subject over the next few months. The hysteria seems to be building with some on PR already.
Taxcinda and her cronies still have to get it past Winston too. Apparently he's not a fan.
They will go to the election on it. Jacinda ruled out a CGT in the first term when National was very cleverly gaining traction on the Taxcinda theme during the last election. So what Winston thinks won't matter, unless his aversion to a CGT is enough to make him get back into bed with National, which I doubt.
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Ted.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Ted. »

jono45 wrote:
BillW wrote:The pots and kettles have taken over.
Careful now
You said you were going to go back to lurking.
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booji boy
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by booji boy »

Wilderbeast wrote:
booji boy wrote:
Tehui wrote:Soimon Brudges & his wealthy cronies will inevitably indulge in scaremongering on the CGT subject over the next few months. The hysteria seems to be building with some on PR already.
Taxcinda and her cronies still have to get it past Winston too. Apparently he's not a fan.
They will go to the election on it. Jacinda ruled out a CGT in the first term when National was very cleverly gaining traction on the Taxcinda theme during the last election. So what Winston thinks won't matter, unless his aversion to a CGT is enough to make him get back into bed with National, which I doubt.
Well unless you think Labour will win enough seats to either govern alone or only need the support of the Greens it could still be a rocky road ahead for Labour to implement a CGT if they need Winston and he opposes it.
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Mr Mike
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Mr Mike »

One alternative to fully exempting the family home is to allow a tax free capital gain for the primary residence. In the US its $500K and I’m not sure whether or not it is a one time exception.

Something like that could satisfy many of the NTIMBY while also satiating those that want to punish more fortunate neighbors.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by guy smiley »

Someone has to stand up for the little man, Guv.
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Mr Mike
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Mr Mike »

guy smiley wrote:Someone has to stand up for the little man, Guv.
We always do, it is just a matter of defining of who exactly the vertically challenged person is.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by guy smiley »

Mr Mike wrote:
guy smiley wrote:Someone has to stand up for the little man, Guv.
We always do, it is just a matter of defining of who exactly the vertically challenged person is.
:) I believe that was declared out of bounds :lol:
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Mr Mike »

Image
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by guy smiley »

Excellent gif game :thumbup:
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Fat Old Git »

Well, what a strange turn this thread has taken re a possible CGT. It seems if you question it you're a greedy rich prick, and if you don't you're a communist. In a strange kind of reverse parody of the Trump thread's "winding up the Libtards" it seems that the best reason for it so far is because it will wind up the greedy conservatives.

So, in an effort to bring it back on track, can I ask the following questions?

1, What would we like a CGT to actually achieve, beside sticking it to the "rich"?
- Encourage investment in more productive sectors of the economy?
- Help make the housing market more affordable?
- All of the above and / or something else?

2, How will it actually achieve these outcomes? What's the mechanism and why will it work the way we hope?

3, How do we know or ensure there won't be negative or unexpected consequences? For example,
- People just add the CGT on to the asking price of their properties and the prices just go up?
- People invest more in their family homes distorting the market as bigger and more expensive properties become
the norm leaving fewer houses at the affordable end of the market for first home or low income buyers?

If we don't know the answers to the above how can we decide if it's a good thing or not?
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Wilderbeast »

booji boy wrote:
Wilderbeast wrote:
booji boy wrote:
Tehui wrote:Soimon Brudges & his wealthy cronies will inevitably indulge in scaremongering on the CGT subject over the next few months. The hysteria seems to be building with some on PR already.
Taxcinda and her cronies still have to get it past Winston too. Apparently he's not a fan.
They will go to the election on it. Jacinda ruled out a CGT in the first term when National was very cleverly gaining traction on the Taxcinda theme during the last election. So what Winston thinks won't matter, unless his aversion to a CGT is enough to make him get back into bed with National, which I doubt.
Well unless you think Labour will win enough seats to either govern alone or only need the support of the Greens it could still be a rocky road ahead for Labour to implement a CGT if they need Winston and he opposes it.
Only Winston knows if he’d prefer labour + CGT or National, but my money is on the former.
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Mr Mike
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Mr Mike »

Will Winston be about for the next election or out on his fishing boat?
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guy smiley
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by guy smiley »

Wilderbeast wrote:
booji boy wrote:
Wilderbeast wrote:
booji boy wrote:
Tehui wrote:Soimon Brudges & his wealthy cronies will inevitably indulge in scaremongering on the CGT subject over the next few months. The hysteria seems to be building with some on PR already.
Taxcinda and her cronies still have to get it past Winston too. Apparently he's not a fan.
They will go to the election on it. Jacinda ruled out a CGT in the first term when National was very cleverly gaining traction on the Taxcinda theme during the last election. So what Winston thinks won't matter, unless his aversion to a CGT is enough to make him get back into bed with National, which I doubt.
Well unless you think Labour will win enough seats to either govern alone or only need the support of the Greens it could still be a rocky road ahead for Labour to implement a CGT if they need Winston and he opposes it.
Only Winston knows if he’d prefer labour + CGT or National, but my money is on the former.
His victory speech made a point of economic policies that have caused hardship and needing to look after all NZers.

Easy to forget that when the overriding narrative is supposed differences and instability.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by UncleFB »

Fat Old Git wrote:Well, what a strange turn this thread has taken re a possible CGT. It seems if you question it you're a greedy rich prick, and if you don't you're a communist. In a strange kind of reverse parody of the Trump thread's "winding up the Libtards" it seems that the best reason for it so far is because it will wind up the greedy conservatives.

So, in an effort to bring it back on track, can I ask the following questions?

1, What would we like a CGT to actually achieve, beside sticking it to the "rich"?
- Encourage investment in more productive sectors of the economy?
- Help make the housing market more affordable?
- All of the above and / or something else?

2, How will it actually achieve these outcomes? What's the mechanism and why will it work the way we hope?

3, How do we know or ensure there won't be negative or unexpected consequences? For example,
- People just add the CGT on to the asking price of their properties and the prices just go up?
- People invest more in their family homes distorting the market as bigger and more expensive properties become
the norm leaving fewer houses at the affordable end of the market for first home or low income buyers?

If we don't know the answers to the above how can we decide if it's a good thing or not?
Has the working group report been published yet or is it only still with the pollies? I assume it would cover these aspects?
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Fat Old Git »

I don't know. Probably not given it hasn't been linked?

I would hope they are looking at all of those questions, but who's on the working group and what is their scope / brief?
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by maxbox »

Oh you know the usual, fart around using their parliamentary privileges on catering. Achieve the square root of fudge all with their coalition partners :lol:

Fcuking “thinking group” my arse
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by UncleFB »

Fat Old Git wrote:I don't know. Probably not given it hasn't been linked?

I would hope they are looking at all of those questions, but who's on the working group and what is their scope / brief?
https://taxworkinggroup.govt.nz/

(Haven't read it, just found the site).
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by UncleFB »

maxbox wrote:Oh you know the usual, fart around using their parliamentary privileges on catering. Achieve the square root of fudge all with their coalition partners :lol:

Fcuking “thinking group” my arse
https://taxworkinggroup.govt.nz/what-is ... erprofiles
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Mr Mike »

UncleFB wrote:
Fat Old Git wrote:I don't know. Probably not given it hasn't been linked?

I would hope they are looking at all of those questions, but who's on the working group and what is their scope / brief?
https://taxworkinggroup.govt.nz/

(Haven't read it, just found the site).
Thanks for the link. Just read it, frankly speaking, I’m outraged.







Think that only has the September 18 interim report.
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UncleFB
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by UncleFB »

Mr Mike wrote:
UncleFB wrote:
Fat Old Git wrote:I don't know. Probably not given it hasn't been linked?

I would hope they are looking at all of those questions, but who's on the working group and what is their scope / brief?
https://taxworkinggroup.govt.nz/

(Haven't read it, just found the site).
Thanks for the link. Just read it, frankly speaking, I’m outraged.







Think that only has the September 18 interim report.
Yeah, I was just providing the link to the group in general as FOG was asking who was on it and what's their scope etc. The members and ToR are provided.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Mr Mike »

UncleFB wrote:
Mr Mike wrote:
UncleFB wrote:
Fat Old Git wrote:I don't know. Probably not given it hasn't been linked?

I would hope they are looking at all of those questions, but who's on the working group and what is their scope / brief?
https://taxworkinggroup.govt.nz/

(Haven't read it, just found the site).
Thanks for the link. Just read it, frankly speaking, I’m outraged.







Think that only has the September 18 interim report.
Yeah, I was just providing the link to the group in general as FOG was asking who was on it and what's their scope etc. The members and ToR are provided.
Still outraged
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by UncleFB »

Mr Mike wrote:
UncleFB wrote:
Mr Mike wrote:
UncleFB wrote:
Fat Old Git wrote:I don't know. Probably not given it hasn't been linked?

I would hope they are looking at all of those questions, but who's on the working group and what is their scope / brief?
https://taxworkinggroup.govt.nz/

(Haven't read it, just found the site).
Thanks for the link. Just read it, frankly speaking, I’m outraged.







Think that only has the September 18 interim report.
Yeah, I was just providing the link to the group in general as FOG was asking who was on it and what's their scope etc. The members and ToR are provided.
Still outraged
:lol:
jono45
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by jono45 »

Its always been about Winston, if you think that he went with labour for those reasons you are wrong it was all about getting back at National for dissin him over the years, he wont be round after next election,My bets are on him being made ambassador to the UK for the legendary wine and food junket which he will have negotiated during the creepy secret agreement process
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Fat Old Git »

UncleFB wrote:
Fat Old Git wrote:I don't know. Probably not given it hasn't been linked?

I would hope they are looking at all of those questions, but who's on the working group and what is their scope / brief?
https://taxworkinggroup.govt.nz/

(Haven't read it, just found the site).
Cheers for that. :thumbup:

Makes an interesting read. The ToR sounds fairly reasonable mostly, although there are some limitations which might suggest that those who set it up have already made some political decisions.
The Tax Working Group has been established by the Government in order to examine further improvements in the structure, fairness and balance of the tax system.

The New Zealand tax system has been justifiably commended internationally for being a simple and efficient system. The Government’s starting position is that the guiding principle for the New Zealand tax system – namely, that tax should operate neutrally and as much in the background as possible – is sound.

The Working Group will consider what improvements to this framework could improve the structure, fairness and balance of the tax system. In particular, the Working Group will consider the impact on the tax system of the likely economic environment over the next decade.

The Government has the following objectives for the tax system:

A tax system that is efficient, fair, simple and collected
A system that promotes the long-term sustainability and productivity of the economy
A system that supports a sustainable revenue base to fund government operating expenditure around its historical level of 30 per cent of GDP
A system that treats all income and assets in a fair, balanced and efficient manner, having special regard to housing affordability
A progressive tax and transfer system for individuals and families, and
An overall tax system that operates in a simple and coherent manner.

The Working Group should report to the Government on:

Whether the tax system operates fairly in relation to taxpayers, income, assets and wealth
Whether the tax system promotes the right balance between supporting the productive economy and the speculative economy
Whether there are changes to the tax system which would make it more fair, balanced and efficient, and
Whether there are other changes which would support the integrity of the income tax system, having regard to the interaction of the systems for taxing companies, trusts, and individuals.

In examining the points above, the Working Group should consider in particular the following:

The economic environment that will apply over the next 5-10 years, taking into account demographic change, and the impact of changes in technology and employment practices, and how these are driving different business models,
Whether a system of taxing capital gains or land (not applying to the family home or the land under it), or other housing tax measures, would improve the tax system.
Whether a progressive company tax (with a lower rate for small companies) would improve the tax system and the business environment, and
What role the taxation system can play in delivering positive environmental and ecological outcomes, especially over the longer term.

In considering the matters above, the Working Group should have due regard to the overall structure of the tax system to ensure it is fair, balanced and efficient, as well as simple for taxpayers to understand and comply with their tax obligations.

The following are outside the scope of the Working Group’s review:

Increasing any income tax rate or the rate of GST
Inheritance tax
Any other changes that would apply to the taxation of the family home or the land under it, and

The adequacy of the personal tax system and its interaction with the transfer system (this will be considered as part of a separate review of Working for Families).

In addition, the focus of the Working Group should not be on more technical matters already under review as part of the Tax Policy Work Programme, including:

International tax reform under the Base Erosion and Profit Shifting agenda, and
Policy changes as part of Inland Revenue’s Business Transformation programme.

The Working Group will be able to recommend further reviews be undertaken on specific issues which the group considers it has not been able to explore sufficiently, or that were excluded from its terms of reference but which could benefit from being considered in the context of its recommendations.

The Working Group’s membership will include individual(s) with expertise in Maori community and business environments.

The Working Group will be supported by a secretariat of officials from Treasury and Inland Revenue, and it will be able to seek independent advice and analysis on any matter within the scope of its Terms of Reference. The Working Group will have an independent advisor to analyse the various sources of advice received by the Working Group and help to analyse and distil the information to assist the Working Group’s deliberations. The Working Group will be expected to engage with the public in developing its recommendations.

The Working Group should have its first meeting no later than February 2018, issue an interim report to the Minister of Finance and Minister of Revenue no later than September 2018, and issue a final report to the Minister of Finance and Minister of Revenue no later than February 2019. These dates may be varied with the consent of the Minister of Finance.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by maxbox »

UncleFB wrote:
Fat Old Git wrote:I don't know. Probably not given it hasn't been linked?

I would hope they are looking at all of those questions, but who's on the working group and what is their scope / brief?
https://taxworkinggroup.govt.nz/

(Haven't read it, just found the site).
Too long, didn’t want to read :uhoh: that’s me btw....

Although “further measures to ensure tax compliance” sounds ominous
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by guy smiley »

:thumbup:

Nothing in that to be afraid of. Gonna have to find some other way to punish the rich pricks. Maybe a Whacking Day?
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Fat Old Git »

guy smiley wrote::thumbup:

Nothing in that to be afraid of. Gonna have to find some other way to punish the rich pricks. Maybe a Whacking Day?
That's just the terms of reference though, not the findings. As I said, the ToR seem fairly reasonable, but as are often the case with ToR they're mostly an aspirational. Will be interesting to see what they've actually manged to come up with.

And re punishing the rick pricks. I'm torn between forcing them to hold community BBQ'a once a month where the less well off are given access to their wine cellars, or having to give driving lessons in their luxury vehicles to the kids of grown up boy racers.
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