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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 4:41 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 4:44 pm 
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Excellent gif game :thumbup:


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 11:57 pm 
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Well, what a strange turn this thread has taken re a possible CGT. It seems if you question it you're a greedy rich prick, and if you don't you're a communist. In a strange kind of reverse parody of the Trump thread's "winding up the Libtards" it seems that the best reason for it so far is because it will wind up the greedy conservatives.

So, in an effort to bring it back on track, can I ask the following questions?

1, What would we like a CGT to actually achieve, beside sticking it to the "rich"?
- Encourage investment in more productive sectors of the economy?
- Help make the housing market more affordable?
- All of the above and / or something else?

2, How will it actually achieve these outcomes? What's the mechanism and why will it work the way we hope?

3, How do we know or ensure there won't be negative or unexpected consequences? For example,
- People just add the CGT on to the asking price of their properties and the prices just go up?
- People invest more in their family homes distorting the market as bigger and more expensive properties become
the norm leaving fewer houses at the affordable end of the market for first home or low income buyers?

If we don't know the answers to the above how can we decide if it's a good thing or not?


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:12 am 
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booji boy wrote:
Wilderbeast wrote:
booji boy wrote:
Tehui wrote:
Soimon Brudges & his wealthy cronies will inevitably indulge in scaremongering on the CGT subject over the next few months. The hysteria seems to be building with some on PR already.


Taxcinda and her cronies still have to get it past Winston too. Apparently he's not a fan.


They will go to the election on it. Jacinda ruled out a CGT in the first term when National was very cleverly gaining traction on the Taxcinda theme during the last election. So what Winston thinks won't matter, unless his aversion to a CGT is enough to make him get back into bed with National, which I doubt.


Well unless you think Labour will win enough seats to either govern alone or only need the support of the Greens it could still be a rocky road ahead for Labour to implement a CGT if they need Winston and he opposes it.


Only Winston knows if he’d prefer labour + CGT or National, but my money is on the former.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:17 am 
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Will Winston be about for the next election or out on his fishing boat?


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:33 am 
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Wilderbeast wrote:
booji boy wrote:
Wilderbeast wrote:
booji boy wrote:
Tehui wrote:
Soimon Brudges & his wealthy cronies will inevitably indulge in scaremongering on the CGT subject over the next few months. The hysteria seems to be building with some on PR already.


Taxcinda and her cronies still have to get it past Winston too. Apparently he's not a fan.


They will go to the election on it. Jacinda ruled out a CGT in the first term when National was very cleverly gaining traction on the Taxcinda theme during the last election. So what Winston thinks won't matter, unless his aversion to a CGT is enough to make him get back into bed with National, which I doubt.


Well unless you think Labour will win enough seats to either govern alone or only need the support of the Greens it could still be a rocky road ahead for Labour to implement a CGT if they need Winston and he opposes it.


Only Winston knows if he’d prefer labour + CGT or National, but my money is on the former.


His victory speech made a point of economic policies that have caused hardship and needing to look after all NZers.

Easy to forget that when the overriding narrative is supposed differences and instability.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:49 am 
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Fat Old Git wrote:
Well, what a strange turn this thread has taken re a possible CGT. It seems if you question it you're a greedy rich prick, and if you don't you're a communist. In a strange kind of reverse parody of the Trump thread's "winding up the Libtards" it seems that the best reason for it so far is because it will wind up the greedy conservatives.

So, in an effort to bring it back on track, can I ask the following questions?

1, What would we like a CGT to actually achieve, beside sticking it to the "rich"?
- Encourage investment in more productive sectors of the economy?
- Help make the housing market more affordable?
- All of the above and / or something else?

2, How will it actually achieve these outcomes? What's the mechanism and why will it work the way we hope?

3, How do we know or ensure there won't be negative or unexpected consequences? For example,
- People just add the CGT on to the asking price of their properties and the prices just go up?
- People invest more in their family homes distorting the market as bigger and more expensive properties become
the norm leaving fewer houses at the affordable end of the market for first home or low income buyers?

If we don't know the answers to the above how can we decide if it's a good thing or not?

Has the working group report been published yet or is it only still with the pollies? I assume it would cover these aspects?


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:55 am 
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I don't know. Probably not given it hasn't been linked?

I would hope they are looking at all of those questions, but who's on the working group and what is their scope / brief?


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:10 am 
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Oh you know the usual, fart around using their parliamentary privileges on catering. Achieve the square root of fudge all with their coalition partners :lol:

Fcuking “thinking group” my arse


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:11 am 
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Fat Old Git wrote:
I don't know. Probably not given it hasn't been linked?

I would hope they are looking at all of those questions, but who's on the working group and what is their scope / brief?

https://taxworkinggroup.govt.nz/

(Haven't read it, just found the site).


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:15 am 
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maxbox wrote:
Oh you know the usual, fart around using their parliamentary privileges on catering. Achieve the square root of fudge all with their coalition partners :lol:

Fcuking “thinking group” my arse

https://taxworkinggroup.govt.nz/what-is ... erprofiles


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:19 am 
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UncleFB wrote:
Fat Old Git wrote:
I don't know. Probably not given it hasn't been linked?

I would hope they are looking at all of those questions, but who's on the working group and what is their scope / brief?

https://taxworkinggroup.govt.nz/

(Haven't read it, just found the site).

Thanks for the link. Just read it, frankly speaking, I’m outraged.







Think that only has the September 18 interim report.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:22 am 
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Mr Mike wrote:
UncleFB wrote:
Fat Old Git wrote:
I don't know. Probably not given it hasn't been linked?

I would hope they are looking at all of those questions, but who's on the working group and what is their scope / brief?

https://taxworkinggroup.govt.nz/

(Haven't read it, just found the site).

Thanks for the link. Just read it, frankly speaking, I’m outraged.







Think that only has the September 18 interim report.

Yeah, I was just providing the link to the group in general as FOG was asking who was on it and what's their scope etc. The members and ToR are provided.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:24 am 
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UncleFB wrote:
Mr Mike wrote:
UncleFB wrote:
Fat Old Git wrote:
I don't know. Probably not given it hasn't been linked?

I would hope they are looking at all of those questions, but who's on the working group and what is their scope / brief?

https://taxworkinggroup.govt.nz/

(Haven't read it, just found the site).

Thanks for the link. Just read it, frankly speaking, I’m outraged.







Think that only has the September 18 interim report.

Yeah, I was just providing the link to the group in general as FOG was asking who was on it and what's their scope etc. The members and ToR are provided.

Still outraged


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:28 am 
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Mr Mike wrote:
UncleFB wrote:
Mr Mike wrote:
UncleFB wrote:
Fat Old Git wrote:
I don't know. Probably not given it hasn't been linked?

I would hope they are looking at all of those questions, but who's on the working group and what is their scope / brief?

https://taxworkinggroup.govt.nz/

(Haven't read it, just found the site).

Thanks for the link. Just read it, frankly speaking, I’m outraged.







Think that only has the September 18 interim report.

Yeah, I was just providing the link to the group in general as FOG was asking who was on it and what's their scope etc. The members and ToR are provided.

Still outraged

:lol:


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:50 am 
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Its always been about Winston, if you think that he went with labour for those reasons you are wrong it was all about getting back at National for dissin him over the years, he wont be round after next election,My bets are on him being made ambassador to the UK for the legendary wine and food junket which he will have negotiated during the creepy secret agreement process


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:38 am 
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UncleFB wrote:
Fat Old Git wrote:
I don't know. Probably not given it hasn't been linked?

I would hope they are looking at all of those questions, but who's on the working group and what is their scope / brief?

https://taxworkinggroup.govt.nz/

(Haven't read it, just found the site).


Cheers for that. :thumbup:

Makes an interesting read. The ToR sounds fairly reasonable mostly, although there are some limitations which might suggest that those who set it up have already made some political decisions.

Quote:
The Tax Working Group has been established by the Government in order to examine further improvements in the structure, fairness and balance of the tax system.

The New Zealand tax system has been justifiably commended internationally for being a simple and efficient system. The Government’s starting position is that the guiding principle for the New Zealand tax system – namely, that tax should operate neutrally and as much in the background as possible – is sound.

The Working Group will consider what improvements to this framework could improve the structure, fairness and balance of the tax system. In particular, the Working Group will consider the impact on the tax system of the likely economic environment over the next decade.

The Government has the following objectives for the tax system:

A tax system that is efficient, fair, simple and collected
A system that promotes the long-term sustainability and productivity of the economy
A system that supports a sustainable revenue base to fund government operating expenditure around its historical level of 30 per cent of GDP
A system that treats all income and assets in a fair, balanced and efficient manner, having special regard to housing affordability
A progressive tax and transfer system for individuals and families, and
An overall tax system that operates in a simple and coherent manner.

The Working Group should report to the Government on:

Whether the tax system operates fairly in relation to taxpayers, income, assets and wealth
Whether the tax system promotes the right balance between supporting the productive economy and the speculative economy
Whether there are changes to the tax system which would make it more fair, balanced and efficient, and
Whether there are other changes which would support the integrity of the income tax system, having regard to the interaction of the systems for taxing companies, trusts, and individuals.

In examining the points above, the Working Group should consider in particular the following:

The economic environment that will apply over the next 5-10 years, taking into account demographic change, and the impact of changes in technology and employment practices, and how these are driving different business models,
Whether a system of taxing capital gains or land (not applying to the family home or the land under it), or other housing tax measures, would improve the tax system.
Whether a progressive company tax (with a lower rate for small companies) would improve the tax system and the business environment, and
What role the taxation system can play in delivering positive environmental and ecological outcomes, especially over the longer term.

In considering the matters above, the Working Group should have due regard to the overall structure of the tax system to ensure it is fair, balanced and efficient, as well as simple for taxpayers to understand and comply with their tax obligations.

The following are outside the scope of the Working Group’s review:

Increasing any income tax rate or the rate of GST
Inheritance tax
Any other changes that would apply to the taxation of the family home or the land under it, and

The adequacy of the personal tax system and its interaction with the transfer system (this will be considered as part of a separate review of Working for Families).

In addition, the focus of the Working Group should not be on more technical matters already under review as part of the Tax Policy Work Programme, including:

International tax reform under the Base Erosion and Profit Shifting agenda, and
Policy changes as part of Inland Revenue’s Business Transformation programme.

The Working Group will be able to recommend further reviews be undertaken on specific issues which the group considers it has not been able to explore sufficiently, or that were excluded from its terms of reference but which could benefit from being considered in the context of its recommendations.

The Working Group’s membership will include individual(s) with expertise in Maori community and business environments.

The Working Group will be supported by a secretariat of officials from Treasury and Inland Revenue, and it will be able to seek independent advice and analysis on any matter within the scope of its Terms of Reference. The Working Group will have an independent advisor to analyse the various sources of advice received by the Working Group and help to analyse and distil the information to assist the Working Group’s deliberations. The Working Group will be expected to engage with the public in developing its recommendations.

The Working Group should have its first meeting no later than February 2018, issue an interim report to the Minister of Finance and Minister of Revenue no later than September 2018, and issue a final report to the Minister of Finance and Minister of Revenue no later than February 2019. These dates may be varied with the consent of the Minister of Finance.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:41 am 
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UncleFB wrote:
Fat Old Git wrote:
I don't know. Probably not given it hasn't been linked?

I would hope they are looking at all of those questions, but who's on the working group and what is their scope / brief?

https://taxworkinggroup.govt.nz/

(Haven't read it, just found the site).


Too long, didn’t want to read :uhoh: that’s me btw....

Although “further measures to ensure tax compliance” sounds ominous


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:07 am 
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:thumbup:

Nothing in that to be afraid of. Gonna have to find some other way to punish the rich pricks. Maybe a Whacking Day?


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:20 am 
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guy smiley wrote:
:thumbup:

Nothing in that to be afraid of. Gonna have to find some other way to punish the rich pricks. Maybe a Whacking Day?


That's just the terms of reference though, not the findings. As I said, the ToR seem fairly reasonable, but as are often the case with ToR they're mostly an aspirational. Will be interesting to see what they've actually manged to come up with.

And re punishing the rick pricks. I'm torn between forcing them to hold community BBQ'a once a month where the less well off are given access to their wine cellars, or having to give driving lessons in their luxury vehicles to the kids of grown up boy racers.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:26 am 
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I know it’s ToR, it’s that I was alluding to really, in light of recent suggestions regarding the fleecing of the privileged.

Good name for a beer festival, that... Fleece the Privilege.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:45 am 
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https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12202581

Why on earth would you build these ridiculous 'houses' in wanaka of all places

Completely idiotic government


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:49 am 
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brat wrote:
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12202581

Why on earth would you build these ridiculous 'houses' in wanaka of all places

Completely idiotic government

PHIL Twyford is a total numpty


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:51 am 
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jono45 wrote:
brat wrote:
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12202581

Why on earth would you build these ridiculous 'houses' in wanaka of all places

Completely idiotic government

PHIL Twyford is a total numpty


and creepy, don't forget creepy.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:55 am 
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RuggaBugga wrote:
jono45 wrote:
brat wrote:
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12202581

Why on earth would you build these ridiculous 'houses' in wanaka of all places

Completely idiotic government

PHIL Twyford is a total numpty


and creepy, don't forget creepy.

:lol:

Spent a bit of time in Wanaka recently. Place is just crawling with baristas. Falling out of trees, they were.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:58 am 
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guy smiley wrote:
I know it’s ToR, it’s that I was alluding to really, in light of recent suggestions regarding the fleecing of the privileged.

Good name for a beer festival, that... Fleece the Privilege.


I'd go. Also a good name for a punk rock band. Fleece the Privilege could headline at the the festival and a local brewer could do a Fleece the Privilege IPA.

Re the ToR, it uses the word "fair" in several places. Which sounds great. Who wouldn't want that? Only problem is it's difficult to get agreement on what that actually looks like. Here's the common dictionary definition.

Quote:
Fair - 1. treating people equally without favouritism or discrimination.


Are we favoring those on lower incomes and discriminating against those who earn more? Or are we treating everyone equally because we will increase the tax percentage on anyone who moves from a low to high income or decrease it if the situation is reversed? I'm in the later camp but you can see how it could spark a lot of debate before you even look at what "fair" levels of taxation should be.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:15 am 
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Looks like Soimon is in the shit if the latest 3 news poll is to be believed.

They have Labour on 47.5%
National on 41.6%
Greens on 5.1%

No one else in parliament.

translates to 60 seats to labour and six to the Greens giving them a straight majority.

National get 53 + 1 more for ACT.

But it gets worse for Soimon:
He's also on 5.0% as preferred PM, less than Judith Collins who is on 6.2% :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:42 am 
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brat wrote:
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12202581

Why on earth would you build these ridiculous 'houses' in wanaka of all places

Completely idiotic government



I think the keenness to get the programme going meant that things like selling the houses wasn't given a lot of thought.
The learning curve in this one is a bloody huge bluff


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:43 am 
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RuggaBugga wrote:
Looks like Soimon is in the shit if the latest 3 news poll is to be believed.

They have Labour on 47.5%
National on 41.6%
Greens on 5.1%

No one else in parliament.

translates to 60 seats to labour and six to the Greens giving them a straight majority.

National get 53 + 1 more for ACT.

But it gets worse for Soimon:
He's also on 5.0% as preferred PM, less than Judith Collins who is on 6.2% :lol:


Bugger - We don't want this info out there sharpening National back-knives


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:51 am 
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Have the govt been a bit naughty by getting the IRD to do a bit of polling on their behalf, they say not but they’re politicians so...

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/110507792/revenue-minister-under-pressure-over-inland-revenues-political-polling


Last edited by jambanja on Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:12 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:01 am 
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Enzedder wrote:
brat wrote:
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12202581

Why on earth would you build these ridiculous 'houses' in wanaka of all places

Completely idiotic government



I think the keenness to get the programme going meant that things like selling the houses wasn't given a lot of thought.
The learning curve in this one is a bloody huge bluff



Step me through this if you don't mind...

it's February. These houses have been on the market since October, coincidentally the same month The Ministry of Housing and Urban development was actually formed. That was a year after the current government came to power, give or take a few weeks.

Did they manage to get houses, land, approvals etc all done and ready for market within a year without forming gthe Ministry they wanted to look after all of that?

That's f**king sensational :lol: :lol:

Hats off and pants down whingers, that is phenomenal performance...

unless the moves had been initiated by the previous government.

Well, that's awkward, isn't it? It's either a masterpiece of infrastructure initiation or the f**k up was your baby's fault :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:09 am 
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RuggaBugga wrote:
Looks like Soimon is in the shit if the latest 3 news poll is to be believed.

They have Labour on 47.5%
National on 41.6%
Greens on 5.1%

No one else in parliament.

translates to 60 seats to labour and six to the Greens giving them a straight majority.

National get 53 + 1 more for ACT.

But it gets worse for Soimon:
He's also on 5.0% as preferred PM, less than Judith Collins who is on 6.2% :lol:


Notable because the Newshub polling has had National out in front even during the Jacindamania period of the election campaign (I think Labour only ever closed it to within a 2% from memory), and then into the first six months of the current govt.

Rule 1:

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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:12 am 
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but but but...

we were told the polling..

Winston was dead,

Jacinda's coalition was dead.

It was written. This was said.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:22 am 
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guy smiley wrote:
but but but...

we were told the polling..

Winston was dead,

Jacinda's coalition was dead.

It was written. This was said.


At 2.9 you don't think Winston is dead? NZF have an awful lot of work to do to stay alive, not pissing off their base would be a start...


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:26 am 
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guy smiley wrote:
I know it’s ToR, it’s that I was alluding to really, in light of recent suggestions regarding the fleecing of the privileged.

Good name for a beer festival, that... Fleece the Privilege.

Talking of privilege.
Your wages in West Australian mining would put you in the top 5% of the worlds earners.
The present minimum wage places New Zealand as the third highest in the world after Australia and Luxemburg as far as I can gather.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_m ... by_country

So what are we trying to achieve?

I'm not against CGT in principle but it is just another administrative nightmare.
Just another boil on the arse of the productive sector.

A solution looking for a problem.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:34 am 
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Brabus wrote:
guy smiley wrote:
but but but...

we were told the polling..

Winston was dead,

Jacinda's coalition was dead.

It was written. This was said.


At 2.9 you don't think Winston is dead? NZF have an awful lot of work to do to stay alive, not pissing off their base would be a start...



Labour could do an Epsom or Ohariu


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:43 am 
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guy smiley wrote:
but but but...

we were told the polling..

Winston was dead,

Jacinda's coalition was dead.

It was written. This was said.


All this proves is that kiwis (like a lot of other countries) foolishly vote on personality rather than policy

If it was Andrew little pushing the same agenda. /policy -well labour wouldn’t be in government in the first place

Other point to note is that if national had even a half likeable leader they probably be ahead in the polls

In the meantime we have to put up with an inept government and leader who will probably announce her wedding plans (or another pregnancy) in a pre next election stunt whilst the numpties that voted for ‘let’s do this’ rubbish don’t realise that their lives aren’t improving as promised and are more interested in the exclusive woman’s day baby / wedding stories


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:46 am 
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:lol: :lol: :thumbup:


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:48 am 
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Spoiler that please Auckman, that is definitely NSFW material


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:54 am 
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Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Posts: 180
brat wrote:
guy smiley wrote:
but but but...

we were told the polling..

Winston was dead,

Jacinda's coalition was dead.

It was written. This was said.


All this proves is that kiwis (like a lot of other countries) foolishly vote on personality rather than policy

If it was Andrew little pushing the same agenda. /policy -well labour wouldn’t be in government in the first place

Other point to note is that if national had even a half likeable leader they probably be ahead in the polls

In the meantime we have to put up with an inept government and leader who will probably announce her wedding plans (or another pregnancy) in a pre next election stunt whilst the numpties that voted for ‘let’s do this’ rubbish don’t realise that their lives aren’t improving as promised and are more interested in the exclusive woman’s day baby / wedding stories

With a good dose of Tamatii coffeys surrgate baby countdown just to reinforce that they are diversity central man


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