Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African referees?

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Ali's Choice
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Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African referees?

Post by Ali's Choice »

Last night the Waratahs got caned by a South African referee against the Lions, losing the penalty count 11-2. Egon Seconds was the referee last night, the same referee who officiated a shameful 20-1 penalty count in favour of the Stormers versus the Rebels in March.

On Friday night the Crusaders dominated just about every aspect of their match against the Bulls, but were absolutely annihilated in the penalty count 12-3.

Are we back to the bad old days, when South African referees focus only on the infringements of visiting teams? These lopsided penalty counts are an absolute embarrassment to the competition.
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naki
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by naki »

From 20-1 to 11-2?

At least Egon is trying to be a little more subtle now
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by CrazyIslander »

What more can we say about it. I could only imagine how bad it was in the old days.
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Ali's Choice
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Ali's Choice »

naki wrote:From 20-1 to 11-2?

At least Egon is trying to be a little more subtle now
Even the 11-2 count is highly unusual. And in a close game, as last night's was, such a lopsided penalty count will decide the outcome. It's foolish to argue otherwise.

I cannot understand how SANZAAR can continue with the farce of non-neutral referees. The savings in terms of flying referees across the Indian Ocean is more than offset by the complete devaluing of the entire competition. Referees like Egon Seconds are making a mockery of this tournament, and SANZAAR is fiddling while Rome burns around them.
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Ali's Choice
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Ali's Choice »

CrazyIslander wrote:What more can we say about it. I could only imagine how bad it was in the old days.
South African referees are a disgrace to this comp. Why should visiting teams bother turning up?
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naki
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by naki »

As for the OP, it's an established fact that all coaches must surely be aware of now; SA referees penalise SA players far less frequently than they do the opposition. This has been the case in every year of the competition, so given their access to statistics I imagine coaches that don't factor this into their game plans are simply being naive.

This fact isn’t necessarily down to conscious bias, though. South African players may simply find it easier to build rapport with Afrikaans speaking refs. SA refs when officiating in the Republic itself (which is where most of these lopsided penalty counts happen) may also be subconsciously fearful of what might happen to them if they upset their home crowd - let’s not forget Pieter van Zyl.
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Flametop »

Just stop cheating.
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naki
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by naki »

Ali's Choice wrote:
naki wrote:From 20-1 to 11-2?

At least Egon is trying to be a little more subtle now
Even the 11-2 count is highly unusual. And in a close game, as last night's was, such a lopsided penalty count will decide the outcome. It's foolish to argue otherwise.

I cannot understand how SANZAAR can continue with the farce of non-neutral referees. The savings in terms of flying referees across the Indian Ocean is more than offset by the complete devaluing of the entire competition. Referees like Egon Seconds are making a mockery of this tournament, and SANZAAR is fiddling while Rome burns around them.
You will also find corresponding lop-sided penalty counts when Australian refs officiate Aussie teams, and when NZ refs officiate NZ teams. Not 20-1 of course, that’s a massive outlier, but an 11-2 pen count is not entirely unusual.

However across the course of a season SA refs definitely do penalise their own sides at a lower rate than Aus refs and NZ refs penalise “their” teams and at a lower rate than neutral refs penalise all teams
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by guy smiley »

It's interesting to hit that stage of the tournament when you encounter South Africa. Threads are infested with severe cases of herpdy yibbidy jaja with various loons practising advanced verbal diarrhoea skills and targetting the head is just a fact of life on field. The strange version of niggle the Saffas practise, that big oke tough guy thing they are so addicted to lets them down time after time and still they go, unable to change. Brute force. Bare faced cheating. Endless crying about the opposition. Crooked refs.

Herpdy yibbidy jaja.
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naki
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by naki »

Flametop wrote:Just stop cheating.
It can’t be just about cheating. Teams are penalised at a remarkably similar rate across all of SR whether a ref is neutral, a NZ ref officiating all other teams including “thier” own, an Australian ref officiating all other teams including “their” own, or a SA ref officiating all other teams. The only outlier, year after year, is when a South African referree officiates a game involving a South African team and a “foreign” team - particularly when the game is held in RSA. In this situation the SA is statistically far more likely to receive less penalties than the opposition. It is known.

Are SA team less likely to “cheat” in front of their own refs? That could also be a factor
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Fat Old Git »

Add to that the fact that most "cheating" is actually timing or spatial awareness errors rather than a deliberate decision to infringe, and the "Just stop cheating " comes across as a just a tad silly.
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Fat Old Git »

You could perhaps argue that Saffer teams are better at reading saffer refs in areas where calls are subjective, but that only works if the local derbies also end up with very low penalty counts. And by the sounds of it that isn't the case.
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Farva »

The Lions have been gifted two wins by Egon Seconds against Australian teams. These are games with massively lopsided penalty counts that the lions win by less than 3.

Why bother playing against SA. The sooner they go to Europe the better.
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by JB1981 »

Flametop wrote:Just stop cheating.
The referees?
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Ali's Choice »

Farva wrote:Why bother playing against SA. The sooner they go to Europe the better.
Agreed.

Can we talk about the Elephant in the room? The reality is that when we're talking about local referees delivering 20-1 penalty counts, we're talking about gross incompetence or cheating? Those are the only two options.
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Hong Kong »

I missed the game and I’m therefore confident that any criticism of the ref is entirely unjustified.

egon is not a good ref
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Ali's Choice »

Hong Kong wrote:I missed the game and I’m therefore confident that any criticism of the ref is entirely unjustified.
In your career, how many times did you officiate a 20-1 penalty count?
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Kahu »

Why we don't just send development teams over with the instruction to knock out/maim their star players ?
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Dubh01 »

Farva wrote:The Lions have been gifted two wins by Egon Seconds against Australian teams. These are games with massively lopsided penalty counts that the lions win by less than 3.

Why bother playing against SA. The sooner they go to Europe the better.
THIS!!!!
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Hong Kong »

Ali's Choice wrote:
Hong Kong wrote:I missed the game and I’m therefore confident that any criticism of the ref is entirely unjustified.
In your career, how many times did you officiate a 20-1 penalty count?
To be honest, I have no idea. I penalise what is in front of me. Btw, there is an addition to my post may have overlooked 😉
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Kahu »

Every rugby team needs a set play in their reportoire designed to 'accidentally' take out a corrupt ref. This should only ever be used in the most dire circumstances. Like a 2007 RWC qf
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Hong Kong »

By fuck, you are tedious
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Tehui »

:lol: @ this thread.
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Ali's Choice »

I don't blame the South African referees. The fault lies with SANZAAR. They got rid of neutral referees years ago because of cost, but in the process they have completely devalued the competition. Why would any Kiwi or Aussie Rugby fan stay up till 3am to watch their team cop a 20-1 penalty count in South Africa delivered by a local referee?
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by jdogscoop »

Ali's Choice wrote:I don't blame the South African referees. The fault lies with SANZAAR. They got rid of neutral referees years ago because of cost, but in the process they have completely devalued the competition. Why would any Kiwi or Aussie Rugby fan stay up till 3am to watch their team cop a 20-1 penalty count in South Africa delivered by a local referee?
It's a strange kind of fan who stays up for a 3am match in SA in these days of cable TV recording. Unless you're coming home from a night out and it aligns nicely, that kind of fanaticism is on another level.

On the topic of SA referees, they should be embarrassed by those statistics. Simply unprofessional.
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by guy smiley »

Tehui wrote: :lol: @ this thread.
:lol:
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Lacrobat »

Setting aside the penalty count for a minute, the passage of play leading to the Lions try against the Waratahs at the start of the 2nd half included one the most blatant forward passes this decade, if not millennium.
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by 749a »

Lacrobat wrote:Setting aside the penalty count for a minute, the passage of play leading to the Lions try against the Waratahs at the start of the 2nd half included one the most blatant forward passes this decade, if not millennium.
The short basketball-style two handed offload?
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by mr bungle »

749a wrote:
Lacrobat wrote:Setting aside the penalty count for a minute, the passage of play leading to the Lions try against the Waratahs at the start of the 2nd half included one the most blatant forward passes this decade, if not millennium.
The short basketball-style two handed offload?
So not that blatant then?
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Enzedder »

I had a 12 - 0 penalty count in the first 15 minutes once - and then called the game off (only time I sent off 2 players)
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Lacrobat »

mr bungle wrote:
749a wrote:
Lacrobat wrote:Setting aside the penalty count for a minute, the passage of play leading to the Lions try against the Waratahs at the start of the 2nd half included one the most blatant forward passes this decade, if not millennium.
The short basketball-style two handed offload?
So not that blatant then?
At 3:30. Judge for yourself.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4orwPtpklOk&t=3s
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by comets »

I thot rasta was excellent..
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

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naki wrote:As for the OP, it's an established fact that all coaches must surely be aware of now; SA referees penalise SA players far less frequently than they do the opposition. This has been the case in every year of the competition, so given their access to statistics I imagine coaches that don't factor this into their game plans are simply being naive.

This fact isn’t necessarily down to conscious bias, though. South African players may simply find it easier to build rapport with Afrikaans speaking refs. SA refs when officiating in the Republic itself (which is where most of these lopsided penalty counts happen) may also be subconsciously fearful of what might happen to them if they upset their home crowd - let’s not forget Pieter van Zyl.
Attack the ref while he is standing next to 16 forwards :lol:

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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Fat Old Git »

Lacrobat wrote:Setting aside the penalty count for a minute, the passage of play leading to the Lions try against the Waratahs at the start of the 2nd half included one the most blatant forward passes this decade, if not millennium.
Just saw that in the weekend highlights. Pretty obvious. Pushed well forward with no momentum argument going for it.

I wonder if it would have ended up being replayed in the big screen a few times if it was the other way around to get the crowd going? Interestingly, on the highest package, which has presumably been provided by the South African broadcaster, they change camera angles right in the middle of the pass. Hmmmmmm.
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Sensible Stephen »

I agree with HK :shock:

Rather than a conscious bias, I think Egon is simply not a good referee. I don't think hes good enough to ref Super Rugby level.
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Openside »

Ali's Choice wrote:Last night the Waratahs got caned by a South African referee against the Lions, losing the penalty count 11-2. Egon Seconds was the referee last night, the same referee who officiated a shameful 20-1 penalty count in favour of the Stormers versus the Rebels in March.

On Friday night the Crusaders dominated just about every aspect of their match against the Bulls, but were absolutely annihilated in the penalty count 12-3.

Are we back to the bad old days, when South African referees focus only on the infringements of visiting teams? These lopsided penalty counts are an absolute embarrassment to the competition.
Maybe the other teams just infringe more... :P
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Jensrsa »

Rebs and Saders, the two most penalised sides in SR (#2 in penalties conceded and #2 and #4 in yellow cards), complain that they are penalised :lol:

The Saders captain and assistant coach even went so far as to complain that the Lions and Bulls milk penalties by not scrumming the same way every time
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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by Tehui »

Jensrsa wrote:Rebs and Saders, the two most penalised sides in SR (#2 in penalties conceded and #2 and #4 in yellow cards), complain that they are penalised :lol:

The Saders captain and assistant coach even went so far as to complain that the Lions and Bulls milk penalties by not scrumming the same way every time
Beautiful.

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Re: Are we back to the 'bad old days' of South African refer

Post by jdogscoop »

Jensrsa wrote:Rebs and Saders, the two most penalised sides in SR (#2 in penalties conceded and #2 and #4 in yellow cards), complain that they are penalised :lol:

The Saders captain and assistant coach even went so far as to complain that the Lions and Bulls milk penalties by not scrumming the same way every time
Stop deluding yourself. A penalty count of 20-1 is absurd. So is 12-3 against a dominant side.

A few of your referees are crooked. Accept it.
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