Life on Venus (possibly)

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Bindi
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Life on Venus (possibly)

Post by Bindi »

Seems like big news.

http://nasawatch.com/archives/2020/09/p ... detec.html
There is a big press release coming out tomorrow (Monday 14 September) morning at the Royal Astronomical Society. They want you to know its big news. The press release has been issued in advance to some journalists under embargo - but not others (like us). We have not seen the press release. But according to several sources knowledgeable with the details of the announcement (who are not under embargo) phosphine has been discovered in the atmosphere of Venus. Its presence suggests - suggests - some strange chemistry going on since phosphine is something you'd only expect to see if life (as we know it) was involved.

The presence of phosphine is seen by many astrobiologists as a "biosignature" i.e. an indicator of the possible presence of life. The detection was made by the Atacama (ALMA) array located in Chile and the James Clerk Maxwell telescope located in Hawaii. The research team includes members from the University of Manchester, the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, and Cardiff University. A paper will appear in the 14 September issue of Nature Astronomy.

From what we're told the researchers have concluded that abiotic mechanisms (i.e. ones that do not involve life) that might produce phosphine cannot account for the large amount that they have detected. The phosphine has been detected in the region within the atmosphere of Venus that is considered by some to be potentially habitable. As to what spin the researchers put on this, we'll have to wait for reporters who have the press release or are allowed to participate in the Zoom press conference thing tomorrow at 15:00 GMT to let us know.
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Re: Life on Venus (possibly)

Post by Farva »

I love that there is a profession called astrobiologists.
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Re: Life on Venus (possibly)

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Re: Life on Venus (possibly)

Post by Farva »

Also...
Wow
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Re: Life on Venus (possibly)

Post by Nolanator »

Protomolecule is building something.
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Re: Life on Venus (possibly)

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Farva wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:52 am Also...
Wow
:thumbup:

i was taught at school that lead would melt on venus, and the clouds were conc. sulphuric acid. So much for CO2 climate change ending life.
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Re: Life on Venus (possibly)

Post by Sinkers »

All we f**king need to really round off 2020 - f**king aliens
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Re: Life on Venus (possibly)

Post by AnkleTap »

Nolanator wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:57 am Protomolecule is building something.
:nod:
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Re: Life on Venus (possibly)

Post by Flyin Ryan »

AnkleTap wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:20 pm
Nolanator wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:57 am Protomolecule is building something.
:nod:
And who started this? Jules-Pierre MAO. That's right, the Chinese.

I'd really need to hear about the kind of plausible organism here that could be doing this. The enormous amount of atmospheric pressure on Venus I thought made all life impossible, even bacteria. Occam's Razor leads you to "if they can't explain phosphine via natural processes, they need to determine what about the planet's geology they might not understand that well that could also create phosphine". Stepping way out of my comfort zone here scientifically, but this is the methodology scientists should be using.
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Re: Life on Venus (possibly)

Post by Nolanator »

Flyin Ryan wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 2:50 pm
AnkleTap wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:20 pm
Nolanator wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:57 am Protomolecule is building something.
:nod:
And who started this? Jules-Pierre MAO. That's right, the Chinese.
.
:lol:
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Re: Life on Venus (possibly)

Post by message #2527204 »

There are sulphur eating bacteria withstanding those kinds of pressures around hydrothermal vents, but not at 460C!
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Re: Life on Venus (possibly)

Post by Flyin Ryan »

message #2527204 wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:47 pm There are sulphur eating bacteria withstanding those kinds of pressures around hydrothermal vents, but not at 460C!
Good point.

The molecule is one part phosphorus, three parts hydrogen.
On Earth, phosphine is associated with microbes or industrial activity — although that doesn’t mean it’s pleasant. “It’s a horrific molecule. It’s terrifying,” Sousa-Silva says. For most Earthly life, phosphine is poisonous because “it interferes with oxygen metabolism in a variety of macabre ways.” For anaerobic life, which does not use oxygen, “phosphine is not so evil,” Sousa-Silva says. Anaerobic microbes living in such places as sewage, swamps and the intestinal tracts of animals from penguins to people are the only known life-forms on Earth that produce the molecule.
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Re: Life on Venus (possibly)

Post by LandOTurk »

Imagine being the first person to detect this from the data. It may have just been a junior crunching numbers or analyzing data. And for a brief few moments you are the only one who now knows life exists elsewhere (possibly). Mind blowing really.
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Re: Life on Venus (possibly)

Post by mikeyboy123 »

We have been here before and this will turn out to be another false alarm.

Whilst extra-terrestrial life may well exist somewhere out there in the vastness of the universe, the human race will not discover it before it descends into savagery/extinction.

IMHO.
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Re: Life on Venus (possibly)

Post by redderneck »

message #2527204 wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:47 pm There are sulphur eating bacteria withstanding those kinds of pressures around hydrothermal vents, but not at 460C!
Dunno.

I've seen the House of Commons on TV.
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Re: Life on Venus (possibly)

Post by Flyin Ryan »

LandOTurk wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 4:41 pm Imagine being the first person to detect this from the data. It may have just been a junior crunching numbers or analyzing data. And for a brief few moments you are the only one who now knows life exists elsewhere (possibly). Mind blowing really.
That would not be my first thought. My first thought would be "damn it, I did the data wrong, let me do it all again".
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Re: Life on Venus (possibly)

Post by message #2527204 »

Just seen a little on the beeb, apparently Sky at Night are dedicating the show to it tonight 10.30 bbc4.

So the temperature isn't a problem, as the phosphine is found in a band at 50km or so altitude at relatively cool temperatures. Problem for life then is that at this a;titude the atmosphere is filled with clouds of concentrated sulphuric acid.
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Re: Life on Venus (possibly)

Post by Demilich »

mikeyboy123 wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:32 pm We have been here before and this will turn out to be another false alarm.

Whilst extra-terrestrial life may well exist somewhere out there in the vastness of the universe, the human race will not discover it before it descends into savagery/extinction.

IMHO.
I'd say the same, with the exception that discovering single cell life forms somewhere might be plausible. The theories I have read on the likelihood/timeframes of more complex life-forms occurring in a population of single cell life-forms, makes me think that we will never survive long enough as a species to discover anything more complex.
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Re: Life on Venus (possibly)

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Demilich wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:37 pm
mikeyboy123 wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:32 pm We have been here before and this will turn out to be another false alarm.

Whilst extra-terrestrial life may well exist somewhere out there in the vastness of the universe, the human race will not discover it before it descends into savagery/extinction.

IMHO.
I'd say the same, with the exception that discovering single cell life forms somewhere might be plausible. The theories I have read on the likelihood/timeframes of more complex life-forms occurring in a population of single cell life-forms, makes me think that we will never survive long enough as a species to discover anything more complex.
timeframes? Our solar system is relatively young.
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Re: Life on Venus (possibly)

Post by Demilich »

message #2527204 wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:42 pm
Demilich wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:37 pm
mikeyboy123 wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:32 pm We have been here before and this will turn out to be another false alarm.

Whilst extra-terrestrial life may well exist somewhere out there in the vastness of the universe, the human race will not discover it before it descends into savagery/extinction.

IMHO.
I'd say the same, with the exception that discovering single cell life forms somewhere might be plausible. The theories I have read on the likelihood/timeframes of more complex life-forms occurring in a population of single cell life-forms, makes me think that we will never survive long enough as a species to discover anything more complex.
timeframes? Our solar system is relatively young.
Yeah, I know if can probably be argued both ways, but I feel that supports it being unlikely. It's believed that it took about 2-3 billion years for single cell life to first produce multicellular life on earth. Which is over half of the proposed age of our solar system. To me it seems unlikely that a "random" act that took that long to occur once (in a way that took hold and persisted), is likely to have occurred again anywhere near us - and even if it has, the likelihood of us happening upon it is also very low. I don't hold much expectation of the human race surviving/thriving for a significant period on a cosmic scale (i.e. many millions of years).
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Re: Life on Venus (possibly)

Post by EverReady »

Years ago, 15 or something like that, I watched a programme where they asked various space lads in what life could look like out there. They had robot planets and planets with sucking things and closer to home they had sort of dolphin yokes on Europa. They also had life on Venus but it was impressive life not this shit.
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Re: Life on Venus (possibly)

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EverReady wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:10 pm Years ago, 15 or something like that, I watched a programme where they asked various space lads in what life could look like out there. They had robot planets and planets with sucking things and closer to home they had sort of dolphin yokes on Europa. They also had life on Venus but it was impressive life not this shit.
:lol:

It would be pretty impressive shit to find that life had developed independently on at least two planets in a single planetary system.
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Re: Life on Venus (possibly)

Post by Flyin Ryan »

Demilich wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:37 pm
mikeyboy123 wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:32 pm We have been here before and this will turn out to be another false alarm.

Whilst extra-terrestrial life may well exist somewhere out there in the vastness of the universe, the human race will not discover it before it descends into savagery/extinction.

IMHO.
I'd say the same, with the exception that discovering single cell life forms somewhere might be plausible. The theories I have read on the likelihood/timeframes of more complex life-forms occurring in a population of single cell life-forms, makes me think that we will never survive long enough as a species to discover anything more complex.
I think it's plausible there's single-cell bacteria somewhere just from our spacecraft and insufficient planetary protection schemes. Would it surprise anyone if one of the Venera probes the Soviets put on Venus was not 100% biologically clean?

To your point, this is a negative influence that's been cast on "Earthlings" from sci-fi like Star Wars and Star Trek. The notion that we're going to find real-life Klingons and ever communicate with them is many levels of fantasy. There's how many species of life on earth and we cannot have an audible conversation with any of them.
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Re: Life on Venus (possibly)

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Flyin Ryan wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:37 pm
Demilich wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:37 pm
mikeyboy123 wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:32 pm We have been here before and this will turn out to be another false alarm.

Whilst extra-terrestrial life may well exist somewhere out there in the vastness of the universe, the human race will not discover it before it descends into savagery/extinction.

IMHO.
I'd say the same, with the exception that discovering single cell life forms somewhere might be plausible. The theories I have read on the likelihood/timeframes of more complex life-forms occurring in a population of single cell life-forms, makes me think that we will never survive long enough as a species to discover anything more complex.
I think it's plausible there's single-cell bacteria somewhere just from our spacecraft and insufficient planetary protection schemes. Would it surprise anyone if one of the Venera probes the Soviets put on Venus was not 100% biologically clean?

To your point, this is a negative influence that's been cast on "Earthlings" from sci-fi like Star Wars and Star Trek. The notion that we're going to find real-life Klingons and ever communicate with them is many levels of fantasy. There's how many species of life on earth and we cannot have an audible conversation with any of them.
Pretty sure there's nothing on earth that could live on a cloud of sulphuric acid.
Thats not to say that spacecraft might not be responsible for the phosphine being there.
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Re: Life on Venus (possibly)

Post by lorcanoworms »

Is that it? a bit of bacteria? how am I going to get back to my home planet if you earthers don't develop ftl.
Last edited by lorcanoworms on Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Life on Venus (possibly)

Post by Hellraiser »

Hate to burst the bubble but all this means, as pointed out already by several astrobiologists, is that phosphine levels probably aren't actually an accurate or reliable measure of biological activity.
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Re: Life on Venus (possibly)

Post by Bindi »

The paper is out:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41550-020-1174-4

Hellraiser's point is refuted. There's no evidence that phosphine levels probably aren't a measure of biological activity.

A probe to sample the atmosphere is what is needed, so that'll be what happens, I guess.
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Re: Life on Venus (possibly)

Post by Farva »

Wait, we were the ones that conducted probing, not the aliens :shock:
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Re: Life on Venus (possibly)

Post by Ewinkum »

Farva wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:24 pm Wait, we were the ones that conducted probing, not the aliens :shock:
We’ve arrived, cosmically speaking.
Hopefully we don’t embarrass ourselves with our early probes.
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Re: Life on Venus (possibly)

Post by flaggETERNAL »

AnkleTap wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:20 pm
Nolanator wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:57 am Protomolecule is building something.
:nod:
My first thought reading the fred title.
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Re: Life on Venus (possibly)

Post by Hellraiser »

Bindi wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:55 pm
Hellraiser's point is refuted. There's no evidence that phosphine levels probably aren't a measure of biological activity.
Read what I actually wrote, moron.
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Re: Life on Venus (possibly)

Post by Farva »

Ewinkum wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:54 pm
Farva wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:24 pm Wait, we were the ones that conducted probing, not the aliens :shock:
We’ve arrived, cosmically speaking.
Hopefully we don’t embarrass ourselves with our early probes.
I can just imagine the aliens looking at us, "was that it" and us stuttering "this never normally happens" as the probe goes off before we get started.
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Re: Life on Venus (possibly)

Post by Bindi »

Hellraiser wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 12:28 am
Bindi wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:55 pm
Hellraiser's point is refuted. There's no evidence that phosphine levels probably aren't a measure of biological activity.
Read what I actually wrote, moron.
I did; it was laughable. Your a priori justification is that life cannot exist on Venus, therefore any evidence that it does is misinterpreted.

That isn’t the way science works; when an astonishing but repeatable result comes up like this, it can’t be explained away without a mechanism. Either it’s life, or it’s a currently unknown mechanism.

The authors, who are experts, couldn’t come up with a way that it isn’t life. It’s simply an open question now, not something explained away with a bit of deductive reasoning. It is certainly something that should be investigated, with actual evidence determining the outcome.
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Re: Life on Venus (possibly)

Post by terangi48 »

Interesting post........

I suggest we send a delegation of 10 world leaders to check it out...........

On the list of ten world leaders should be..........
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Re: Life on Venus (possibly)

Post by AlanBengio »

I always thought, with no scientific basis, that Venus is Earth as it used to be, Earth is Earth as it currently is, and Mars is Earth as it will be in the future (ie impling that all three planets did experience / will experience life of some sort at a certain point)
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Re: Life on Venus (possibly)

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LandOTurk wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 4:41 pm Imagine being the first person to detect this from the data. It may have just been a junior crunching numbers or analyzing data. And for a brief few moments you are the only one who now knows life exists elsewhere (possibly). Mind blowing really.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Life on Venus (possibly)

Post by Leinster in London »

Given that there are predictions that some sort of microbial life exists in the gas clouds around the universe, the question in the future is "why doesn't life exist on a given planet? " Given that the number of known planets are increasing exponentially some time in the future it may be possible to identify where a civilisation previously existed.
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Re: Life on Venus (possibly)

Post by lorcanoworms »

Munster are busy looking for the bacteria's agent.
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Re: Life on Venus (possibly)

Post by Nolanator »

Leinster in London wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:34 am Given that there are predictions that some sort of microbial life exists in the gas clouds around the universe, the question in the future is "why doesn't life exist on a given planet? " Given that the number of known planets are increasing exponentially some time in the future it may be possible to identify where a civilisation previously existed.
The Inhibitors have been busy at work, so there's no sign of intelligent life anywhere and extant civilisations will never develop enough to expand enough and interact.
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Re: Life on Venus (possibly)

Post by koroke hangareka »

Anonymous 1 wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 7:53 am
LandOTurk wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 4:41 pm Imagine being the first person to detect this from the data. It may have just been a junior crunching numbers or analyzing data. And for a brief few moments you are the only one who now knows life exists elsewhere (possibly). Mind blowing really.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
:nod:

I've always known that life exists elsewhere (possibly).
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