NZ Politics Thread

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JB1981
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by JB1981 »

One new case In the community - a port worker who was tested after developing symptoms on Friday.
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mr bungle
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by mr bungle »

Tehui wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:56 am
mr bungle wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:01 am
Enzedder wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:31 pm I do hope that Kelvin Davis shot himself in the foot last night.

James Shaw for Deputy PM (pipe dream) or Grant Robertson please.
What does Davis bring to the table? He seems dim and well out of his depth. Is he just a token appointment by Ardern?
On a side note, that's always the perception for any Māori in a professional field who isn't meeting standards. I work in a professional, Pākeha-dominated environment, and I've always felt that if I didn't do my job properly, that it would reflect badly on all Māori and make it harder for the next person to come through with regards to opportunities. I'm not making excuses for Kelvin Davis, but I do think that Māori have to face perceptions that their appointment was due to tokenism if they're unable to do their job properly.
He’s there to appeal to Maori. To show unity. That’s her strategy from 3 years ago, I think. I don’t disagree with the thinking, and while he doesn’t have to be the next best, he has to show some ability. He’s just such a poor performer I don’t think she should make the same appointment. But I don’t see it changing.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by guy smiley »

Tehui wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:56 am
mr bungle wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:01 am
Enzedder wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:31 pm I do hope that Kelvin Davis shot himself in the foot last night.

James Shaw for Deputy PM (pipe dream) or Grant Robertson please.
What does Davis bring to the table? He seems dim and well out of his depth. Is he just a token appointment by Ardern?
On a side note, that's always the perception for any Māori in a professional field who isn't meeting standards. I work in a professional, Pākeha-dominated environment, and I've always felt that if I didn't do my job properly, that it would reflect badly on all Māori and make it harder for the next person to come through with regards to opportunities. I'm not making excuses for Kelvin Davis, but I do think that Māori have to face perceptions that their appointment was due to tokenism if they're unable to do their job properly.
Not wanting to take anything away from your point here Tehui, it’s my impression as a middle class white male type that those harsher judgements seem to be reserved for anyone not white, middle class and male... both here in Aus and at home in NZ.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Tehui »

Enzedder wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:00 am That was a shocking speech though - imagine something like that when he is Acting PM.
I haven't seen / heard it yet, but it sounds like I'm not missing much.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Tehui »

mr bungle wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:26 am He’s there to appeal to Maori. To show unity. That’s her strategy from 3 years ago, I think. I don’t disagree with the thinking, and while he doesn’t have to be the next best, he has to show some ability. He’s just such a poor performer I don’t think she should make the same appointment. But I don’t see it changing.
Do you think Nanaia Mahuta or Peni Henare would have performed better in the Deputy PM role?
guy smiley wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:26 am Not wanting to take anything away from your point here Tehui, it’s my impression as a middle class white male type that those harsher judgements seem to be reserved for anyone not white, middle class and male... both here in Aus and at home in NZ.
Sadly, that doesn't surprise me.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by UncleFB »

Dark wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 12:25 pm
UncleFB wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 12:08 pm
Dark wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 12:01 pm
UncleFB wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:55 am
RuggaBugga wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:25 am

Coalition. This is a historic swing to Labour but we can see a lot of this is covid driven.

If Ardern is serious about being inclusive she'd take the greens on confidence and supply at least and def bring the Maori party into the fold if they come through.

God how much of a cock is Hooton
I definitely wouldn't. There's no need to when Labour dominate the Maori seats. The Maori Party made their bed.
You want the the govt to ditch Whanau Ora. OK. But disagree
I'd prefer Whanau Ora was implemented properly - also I worked on a successful Whanau Ora bid, I also worked on an unsuccessful one too, that was more deserving than the successful one.

But the Maori Party negated their whole reason for existence when they supported the Takutai Moana Act.

Furthermore, why should Labour give the Maori Party any help? If the Maori Party don't exist they dominate the Maori seats, makes no sense to help keep them around.
Never said Labour had to.

Was just pointing out how stupid your remark the Maori Party made their bed was.

To deny they achieved things while with the Nats when the nats didn't even need them is frankly stupid
There’s nothing stupid about that remark, they made their bed and they suffered the consequences. Are you going to pretend otherwise?
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by mr bungle »

Tehui wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:41 am
mr bungle wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:26 am He’s there to appeal to Maori. To show unity. That’s her strategy from 3 years ago, I think. I don’t disagree with the thinking, and while he doesn’t have to be the next best, he has to show some ability. He’s just such a poor performer I don’t think she should make the same appointment. But I don’t see it changing.
Do you think Nanaia Mahuta or Peni Henare would have performed better in the Deputy PM role?
I think they’re both more effective MPs than Davis. Not sure if they’re at Deputy PM level. It’s a very senior position. Robertson should get it, IMO.
Tehui wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:41 am
guy smiley wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:26 am Not wanting to take anything away from your point here Tehui, it’s my impression as a middle class white male type that those harsher judgements seem to be reserved for anyone not white, middle class and male... both here in Aus and at home in NZ.
Sadly, that doesn't surprise me.
I don’t wish for my comment to be misconstrued as the fair points you both make about difficulties many face in business etc. I see politics separately where in this case I think Davis was chosen due to Maori heritage and broadening party appeal. Nothing wrong with an appointment in that regard. Or was he a good cop/bad cop foil for Ardern? Or both. Either way he seems well out of his depth.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by guy smiley »

Fair enough Bungle... you have to be measured on performance and Davis just doesn’t cut the mustard.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Auckman »

Kelvin Davis was part of the Maori seat strategy devised by Willie Jackson for the 2017 election. Worked a treat. He can still be Deputy Leader of the party but DPM requires the gift of the gab - Robertson is the obvious choice.

I think his performance in Corrections is not too shabby - his main cause in opposition. Now there is such a huge caucus, hopefully JA can spread the workload around. Tourism should go to someone else. I think Associate Health should go to Ayesha Verrall and Liz Craig.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

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I think Associate Health should go to Ayesha Verrall and Liz Craig.
Interesting - who gets Health then?
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by mr bungle »

Auckman wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 2:41 am Kelvin Davis was part of the Maori seat strategy devised by Willie Jackson for the 2017 election. Worked a treat. He can still be Deputy Leader of the party but DPM requires the gift of the gab - Robertson is the obvious choice.

I think his performance in Corrections is not too shabby - his main cause in opposition. Now there is such a huge caucus, hopefully JA can spread the workload around. Tourism should go to someone else. I think Associate Health should go to Ayesha Verrall and Liz Craig.
Two months into COVID and Davis, the minister for tourism, hadn’t contacted the mayors of Rotorua or Queenstown. Quite unusual.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by obelixtim »

Tehui wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:56 am
mr bungle wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:01 am
Enzedder wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:31 pm I do hope that Kelvin Davis shot himself in the foot last night.

James Shaw for Deputy PM (pipe dream) or Grant Robertson please.
What does Davis bring to the table? He seems dim and well out of his depth. Is he just a token appointment by Ardern?
On a side note, that's always the perception for any Māori in a professional field who isn't meeting standards. I work in a professional, Pākeha-dominated environment, and I've always felt that if I didn't do my job properly, that it would reflect badly on all Māori and make it harder for the next person to come through with regards to opportunities. I'm not making excuses for Kelvin Davis, but I do think that Māori have to face perceptions that their appointment was due to tokenism if they're unable to do their job properly.
I wasn't aware Davis had any Maori heritage, he must have about a fingernail of Maori blood. My comment was solely based on his "speech" last night, which lacked class and showed the man has no mana at all. I hope he does not get DPM based on that alone.

As for tokenism, then if he is appointed, then it screams tokenism. He has done nothing of note to justify that appointment. I think Robertson is a much better pick for DPM.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Tehui »

guy smiley wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 2:37 am Fair enough Bungle... you have to be measured on performance and Davis just doesn’t cut the mustard.
:thumbup:
obelixtim wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:03 am As for tokenism, then if he is appointed, then it screams tokenism. He has done nothing of note to justify that appointment. I think Robertson is a much better pick for DPM.
I personally think Robertson would be a better Deputy PM, as would Chris Hipkins for that matter. And as like I've already said, I'm not defending Davis' performance or behaviour as Deputy PM. However, when a non-Māori politician isn't meeting the standards, how often do people start whispering 'tokensim'? They might suggest incompetence, favouritism and cronyism, but I don't hear tokensim being used to describe their appointments.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by obelixtim »

Tehui wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:13 am
guy smiley wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 2:37 am Fair enough Bungle... you have to be measured on performance and Davis just doesn’t cut the mustard.
:thumbup:
obelixtim wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:03 am As for tokenism, then if he is appointed, then it screams tokenism. He has done nothing of note to justify that appointment. I think Robertson is a much better pick for DPM.
I personally think Robertson would be a better Deputy PM, as would Chris Hipkins for that matter. And as like I've already said, I'm not defending Davis' performance or behaviour as Deputy PM. However, when a non-Māori politician isn't meeting the standards, how often do people start whispering 'tokensim'? They might suggest incompetence, favouritism and cronyism, but I don't hear tokensim being used to describe their appointments.
Tokenism would not be a term used in that context. It would only be used if the perception that the appointment is based on race, and put into appease some faction within the party. It would be the same if the person was Chinese and Chinese interests were important.

But Davis has done nothing of note during his time so far, so why else would he be promoted?

The best person should get the job, no matter their gender or skin colour. If Davis is that person, no problem. His performance last night does not suggest he is.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Tehui »

obelixtim wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:26 am
Tehui wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:13 am
guy smiley wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 2:37 am Fair enough Bungle... you have to be measured on performance and Davis just doesn’t cut the mustard.
:thumbup:
obelixtim wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:03 am As for tokenism, then if he is appointed, then it screams tokenism. He has done nothing of note to justify that appointment. I think Robertson is a much better pick for DPM.
I personally think Robertson would be a better Deputy PM, as would Chris Hipkins for that matter. And as like I've already said, I'm not defending Davis' performance or behaviour as Deputy PM. However, when a non-Māori politician isn't meeting the standards, how often do people start whispering 'tokensim'? They might suggest incompetence, favouritism and cronyism, but I don't hear tokensim being used to describe their appointments.
Tokenism would not be a term used in that context. It would only be used if the perception that the appointment is based on race, and put into appease some faction within the party. It would be the same if the person was Chinese and Chinese interests were important.
You just supported my point. :thumbup:
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by dam0 »

iarmhiman wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 10:10 pm
Jay Cee Gee wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 10:08 pm
iarmhiman wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 10:04 pm Why is the leader of the opposition called "Crusher"?
When in govt she introduced a law resulting in the crushing the cars of people convicted of boy racer type offences.
I like that :thumbup:
From memory only one car was ever crushed.

It was a stupid policy. Police already have power to seize cars and sell them to pay fines. Populism at its worst.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

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tubbyj wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:00 am
brat wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:09 pm
tubbyj wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:00 pm Moral high ground? :lol: No one is claiming moral high ground.

Anyone who has followed NZ politics before Jacinda came along knows there is no moral high ground. You support a party where Gerry Brownlie is the co leader, a man who called Bob Parker a clown in the media. So spare us the indignation anything Davies said is tame compared to the precedent National has set over many decades.
As if to prove my point you come up with this hypocritical drivel. -you sound very salty about national

Also very sycophantic about ardern and know little of nz politics if you somehow think that Nz political morality started with ardern

As if to prove my point you act like you don't care to cover your salty tears but are being very passive aggressive.
I don't think you understand passive aggressive at all

My statement was direct and confrontational
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by brat »

tubbyj wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:01 am
brat wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:32 pm
Muttonbirds wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:20 pm
brat wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:09 pm
tubbyj wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:00 pm Moral high ground? :lol: No one is claiming moral high ground.

Anyone who has followed NZ politics before Jacinda came along knows there is no moral high ground. You support a party where Gerry Brownlie is the co leader, a man who called Bob Parker a clown in the media. So spare us the indignation anything Davies said is tame compared to the precedent National has set over many decades.
As if to prove my point you come up with this hypocritical drivel. -you sound very salty about national

Also very sycophantic about ardern and know little of nz politics if you somehow think that Nz political morality started with ardern
"Well timed baby". :lol:
You really are pathetic - have never put anyone on ignore but probably should do so in your case
:lol: :lol: :lol: If you prod the passive aggressive eventually the salty tears come
Yep..you don't understand
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by mr bungle »

Tubby is as painful on political threads as he is on rugby. Particularly blinkered.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by tubbyj »

Wow back to passive aggressive
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by tubbyj »

mr bungle wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 4:40 am Tubby is as painful on political threads as he is on rugby. Particularly blinkered.
Thanks that's a compliment from you.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by mr bungle »

tubbyj wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 4:42 am
mr bungle wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 4:40 am Tubby is as painful on political threads as he is on rugby. Particularly blinkered.
Thanks that's a compliment from you.
I’m incredibly skeptical of anyone who espouses one political party so fervently.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

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Didn't you back National under John Key?
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

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Cause I am skeptical of people who are influenced by personality politics ie who is the leader.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

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tubbyj wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 4:54 am Didn't you back National under John Key?
I’ve voted all over the spectrum. But that’s done with an understanding that there is no one party that covers my ideology. I can cherry pick from most parties. Greens for this, but not for that. Nats for this, but not for that etc etc etc. I am skeptical of the one party, unwavering, stalwarts. Strange people.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

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tubbyj wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 4:57 am Cause I am skeptical of people who are influenced by personality politics ie who is the leader.
Well that’s been amplified in modern times via Key and Ardern.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Tehui »

mr bungle wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 4:59 am
tubbyj wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 4:54 am Didn't you back National under John Key?
I’ve voted all over the spectrum. But that’s done with an understanding that there is no one party that covers my ideology. I can cherry pick from most parties. Greens for this, but not for that. Nats for this, but not for that etc etc etc. I am skeptical of the one party, unwavering, stalwarts. Strange people.
:nod:
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

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There are fundamentals that don't change, i can bore you with them but it might offend your short attention span that is easily influenced by who is the leader. Ultimately and if I have to summarize it for short attention spans it comes down to the greatest good for the greatest amount of people VS I'm alright mate stuff you.
Last edited by tubbyj on Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:32 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

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mr bungle wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 4:59 am
tubbyj wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 4:54 am Didn't you back National under John Key?
I’ve voted all over the spectrum. But that’s done with an understanding that there is no one party that covers my ideology. I can cherry pick from most parties. Greens for this, but not for that. Nats for this, but not for that etc etc etc. I am skeptical of the one party, unwavering, stalwarts. Strange people.
Your ideology is confused then. If you don't know what you stand for at your age, you never will. I find that strange.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

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Muttonbirds wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:31 am
mr bungle wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 4:59 am
tubbyj wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 4:54 am Didn't you back National under John Key?
I’ve voted all over the spectrum. But that’s done with an understanding that there is no one party that covers my ideology. I can cherry pick from most parties. Greens for this, but not for that. Nats for this, but not for that etc etc etc. I am skeptical of the one party, unwavering, stalwarts. Strange people.
Your ideology is confused then. If you don't know what you stand for at your age, you never will. I find that strange.
:nod: :nod:
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

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Must cabinet ministers all come from the ruling party? Or could Jacinda appoint a Green Party MP to her cabinet?
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Jay Cee Gee »

Kiwias wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:34 am Must cabinet ministers all come from the ruling party? Or could Jacinda appoint a Green Party MP to her cabinet?
If they negotiate a coalition agreement there's no reason they couldn't have Green MP's in cabinet.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

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Jay Cee Gee wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:38 am
Kiwias wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:34 am Must cabinet ministers all come from the ruling party? Or could Jacinda appoint a Green Party MP to her cabinet?
If they negotiate a coalition agreement there's no reason they couldn't have Green MP's in cabinet.
Yeah, like Winston Peters being in cabinet last time. Or is the question if a formal coalition doesn’t exist? In that case I think a cabinet minister has to be a member of Government so that would rule it out - I could well be wrong though.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by tubbyj »

mr bungle wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 4:59 am
tubbyj wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 4:54 am Didn't you back National under John Key?
I’ve voted all over the spectrum. But that’s done with an understanding that there is no one party that covers my ideology. I can cherry pick from most parties. Greens for this, but not for that. Nats for this, but not for that etc etc etc. I am skeptical of the one party, unwavering, stalwarts. Strange people.
Also I think I should make clear I don't agree with everything the left and Labour propose. If you search my post history you will see I certainly don't like the Greens. However if you can't see the difference between National and Labour over things like Employment relations, Kiwi Saver, Superannuation, and tax cut VS social services then I fear for your ability to analysis party policy.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

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Jay Cee Gee wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:38 am
Kiwias wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:34 am Must cabinet ministers all come from the ruling party? Or could Jacinda appoint a Green Party MP to her cabinet?
If they negotiate a coalition agreement there's no reason they couldn't have Green MP's in cabinet.
I am wondering if she could have a Green MP in the cabinet even without a coalition agreement.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Auckman »

Kiwias wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:45 am
Jay Cee Gee wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:38 am
Kiwias wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:34 am Must cabinet ministers all come from the ruling party? Or could Jacinda appoint a Green Party MP to her cabinet?
If they negotiate a coalition agreement there's no reason they couldn't have Green MP's in cabinet.
I am wondering if she could have a Green MP in the cabinet even without a coalition agreement.
Yes. Quite normal in the past 20 years. All the Green ministers in the last govt were "ministers outside of cabinet." They only get called into cabinet meetings when their portfolio is on the agenda and the cabinet manual only applies to them only insofar as their area of responsibility is concerned. This arrangement usually happens for confidence and supply relationships.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Auckman »

Enzedder wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 2:45 am
I think Associate Health should go to Ayesha Verrall and Liz Craig.
Interesting - who gets Health then?
Someone with experience with a big ministry I guess. Craig has been a one-term MP and Verrall is brand new. Huge ask to throw them the big job.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Gordon Bennett »

tubbyj wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 10:33 pm I still can't believe Gerry 'Take some personal responsibility for your weight' Brownlee lost my local seat in Ilam. Fantastic stuff from the people of Christchurch and a long time coming for him and Nick Smith.
I am absolutely delighted that these two have lost their seats. Also the Whanganui MP Herete Hipango. Hopefully Maureen Pugh sees that this would be a good juncture to retire otherwise it looks like 3 of these 4 will return on the list. I also wonder whether a different Nats leader would prefer quite a different list.

But, I'm also delighted with some of the more positive scenes from the election last night - for example, a number of defeated National MPs went and congratulated the winning Labour MP in person and had some very polite and positive things to say. Even Gerry Brownlee admitted to having made a few missteps that cost him - including the obvious blunders.

As a few people have alluded to, there are a number of National MPs on the left of the party who aren't so far apart from those on the right of Labour. Whilst the two main parties fight over the central ground, there doesn't need to be adversarial style politics in this country. Occasionally, it would be great to see the two main parties work together on some of the meaty issues of the day. It has happened before. However, I do think if this could happen, it would require the Nats' leader to be more Todd Muller and less Judith Collins.

Any guesses on who will take the plum Cabinet roles vacated by NZF? Who for Defence or Foreign Affairs. I was talking to a couple of armed forces friends today and whilst disappointed that Ron Mark won't be there, their preference was for Andrew Little to take the Defence portfolio. Parker for Foreign Affairs, perhaps? Not clear on the Conservation credentials of any of the Labour caucus. I thought Eugenie Sage was just starting to work out the portfolio after a weak first-year in the role. With my conservation hat on, I'd prefer continuity in that portfolio if at all possible. There's also a need for a few changes around Health & Education. Hipkins can't continue to do both. Kieran McAnulty for Racing Minister?
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Kiwias »

Auckman wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:52 am
Kiwias wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:45 am
Jay Cee Gee wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:38 am
Kiwias wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:34 am Must cabinet ministers all come from the ruling party? Or could Jacinda appoint a Green Party MP to her cabinet?
If they negotiate a coalition agreement there's no reason they couldn't have Green MP's in cabinet.
I am wondering if she could have a Green MP in the cabinet even without a coalition agreement.
Yes. Quite normal in the past 20 years. All the Green ministers in the last govt were "ministers outside of cabinet." They only get called into cabinet meetings when their portfolio is on the agenda and the cabinet manual only applies to them only insofar as their area of responsibility is concerned. This arrangement usually happens for confidence and supply relationships.
Thanks
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by mr bungle »

tubbyj wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:31 am There are fundamentals that don't change, i can bore you with them but it might offend your short attention span that is easily influenced by who is the leader. Ultimately and if I have to summarize it for short attention spans it comes down to the greatest good for the greatest amount of people VS I'm alright mate stuff you.
You can barely type a grammatically correct sentence. I’m not convinced you’re alright.
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