The Official Irish Rugby Thread

[lorcanoworms]

Farrell calling up Munster hooker Eoghan Clarke to show he's not biased.

[Mullet 2]

Harry Byrne called up as well.

Is that confirmed ? I see the Indo are suggesting he’s going to be involved this weekend but there’s no mention of him in the IRFU press release

He needs to start in bigger Leinster games as well. His brother won't let you down in group games or big interpros, safe and dependable, but once you come up againest Toulouse or Sarries in Europe you need someone special at 10. He has a touch of the Finn Russels about him.

Interesting question in the Sunday Times at the weekend: how often has he played behind a beaten pack? Very rarely I'd suggest.

Neither did Carter or Barrett or Wilkinson.

It's like a reverse handicap

[Flametop]

The only throwing Easterby should be concerned with is the pies his hookers seem to be doing at the moment.

[earl the beaver]

Harry Byrne called up as well.

Is that confirmed ? I see the Indo are suggesting he’s going to be involved this weekend but there’s no mention of him in the IRFU press release

He needs to start in bigger Leinster games as well. His brother won't let you down in group games or big interpros, safe and dependable, but once you come up againest Toulouse or Sarries in Europe you need someone special at 10. He has a touch of the Finn Russels about him.

Interesting question in the Sunday Times at the weekend: how often has he played behind a beaten pack? Very rarely I'd suggest.

Neither did Carter or Barrett or Wilkinson.

It's like a reverse handicap

TBF while Carter played for the dominant team in the Cusaders they were often on the back foot against bigger, attritional saffer sides.

And for Wilko he spent a lot of years playing for one of the worst sides in the league

[Mullet 2]

He never played for Newcastle for 5 seasons

[hermie]

Harry Byrne called up as well.

Is that confirmed ? I see the Indo are suggesting he’s going to be involved this weekend but there’s no mention of him in the IRFU press release

He needs to start in bigger Leinster games as well. His brother won't let you down in group games or big interpros, safe and dependable, but once you come up againest Toulouse or Sarries in Europe you need someone special at 10. He has a touch of the Finn Russels about him.

Interesting question in the Sunday Times at the weekend: how often has he played behind a beaten pack? Very rarely I'd suggest.

Neither did Carter or Barrett or Wilkinson.

It's like a reverse handicap

I'd say Wilko rarely got an armchair ride at Newcastle. But yeah it's a nonsense. When a player is doing the business at every level, all the way up, what more can you ask?

Besides, if you're pack is getting walloped there's only so much you can do. Even Carter has looked like a spare prick in those situations. I'll never forget the Bulls absolutely pulverising the Crusaders in Loftus on the way to their first Super Rugby title. A defensive display similar to what we saw at the weekend. Carter, with another playmaker in Mauger outside him and the likes of McAwe and several ABs in the pack could do absolutely nothing against it.

[rfurlong]

Farrell calling up Munster hooker Eoghan Clarke to show he's not biased.

who?

[DeDoc]

Edinburgh and Glasgow were never rugby hotbeds

Neither were Dublin, Cork or Galway tbf. All worked hard off the pitch to build support and player pathways

Yeah, it used to be that Dragons away on a 6N weekend was always a banana skin, or even some years an outright ambush. Now it’s just a chance for the academy lads to run riot.

In fairness, a big part of that is the output from our academy is that much better than the Johnny Hepworths and Harry Vermasses that would be sent out in those games in the past.

Yep. And a big part of that I think has been the willingness of the Irish coaches, at various stages, and with some exceptions, to dip into their squads and actively build depth. Each of them took some pain doing so

The Borders I get the impression always had the same issue we talked about with the Welsh the other day. No matter where you set their home games, the other Border clubs wouldn’t go along to support. Hawick fans wouldn’t support a Gala team etc etc. So the crowds were always the smallest in the league. I don’t know their geography so can’t compare with how easy it is to pull in a rugby crowd on a Friday evening in Galway.

Correct to some extent - although the Borders did have a pre-professional identity as 'South of Scotland' - playing touring teams etc. Long term I think the thing that was always against them was too small a population base - only 100K people.

It's why I get sick of the implicit criticism or admonishment of the likes of Leinster for "always having strong teams" year round, or not taking the tournament seriously.
They're punting out academy lads and still hockying everyone, playing the first teamers all the time isn't going to improve other teams chances or magically turn the league into the Top14.

Exactly this. What makes the three big Irish provinces 'work' is the hard work they do off the pitch indeveloping their players and their supporter bases. Connacht do an excellent job too, IMO, but have a much smaller population base and history to work from. What most of the Welsh and English loons just don't get is that (a) rugby as a game is too demandning for players to play more than 20ish games per year, (b) international rugby is ginormously bigger in terms of revenue generation so is always going to take priority and (c)rugby as a game is a long way behind football - you can't just recruit an international all-stars to play for the Blues or Worcester anymore than LoI clubs can recruit top Brazilian internationals. You can either have bugger all club/province/region games or accept that a lot of those games are going to have to use larger squads - and then your choice is fill the squad with young kids that you're developing, or buy a bunch of meah from the lower divisions of less lucrative economies such as SA, NZ, PI etc

I just don't really buy the parochial thing either. Nobody is more parochial than us.

Yes the door of provincial loyalty was a bit more ajar but Leinster in particular and Connacht have worked hard to turn themselves from Dublin and Galway City sides to genuine provincial sides.

The Taffs arent arsed.

I dunno if we are THAT parochial - some of the loons in Wales (as an example) are off the charts compared to what you get here IMO. Your point about the evolution of Leinster and Connacht from city sides to genuine provinces is spot-on

[lorcanoworms]

Farrell calling up Munster hooker Eoghan Clarke to show he's not biased.

who?

Doesn't matter, nobody bit.

[earl the beaver]

I see Connacht are appealing the red card

https://www.the42.ie/connacht-appeal-ab ... 7-Nov2020/

Don't think they'll win, it's a shoulder to the head. Compare to the 3 week ban Addison got last year when he hit the shoulder/chest and then there was head clash.

[Yer Man]

Any news on Trreadwell?

Or a link to the incident?

[earl the beaver]

Any news on Trreadwell?

Or a link to the incident?

No word yet, I'll be amazed if he isn't. Should have been a red card.

[camroc1]

Having discussed this with both Scottish and Welsh posters over the years, their view is that Ireland got lucky, we got lucky in not having professional soccer as the premier professional sport when pro rugby got started.

The Scots will agree that superficially there is a comparison between Leinster, and particularly Edinburgh but also Glasgow in that rugby is concentrated in the middle class private schools. But, they will point out, that we have no idea of the total dominance of pro soccer in Scotland in all forms of the media and in sucking up sponsorship, and every other pound there to be spent on sport. They don't have, as all the Irish provinces do, the opportunity to collect up the mildly interested fan when soccer already has them. The point about the border towns being small has already been made, and the fact that they hate each other like local GAA teams at home, and have never suspended that hate for a bigger identity like the GAA counties have done. Not to say it couldn't be done but it would take time and money, none of which the SRU have ever had much of.

Regarding Wales, the cat was let out of the bag when Cardiff and Swansea both got into the English soccer premier league. The regions couldn't compete with the English superstar teams visiting Cardiff and Swansea every week, on top of the hames they made of regionalisation anyway. This on top of the Thatcher destruction of the economy of the Valleys, the coal and steel industries and the docks that services them, which meant fúck all local money in the regions anyway, and certainly not enough to compare with £ 50m or so each premier league team gets from TV rights alone.

Pro rugby in Ireland got lucky, primarily because it didn't have the big maw of professional soccer devouring all before, around and after it.

[anonymous_joe]

Having discussed this with both Scottish and Welsh posters over the years, their view is that Ireland got lucky, we got lucky in not having professional soccer as the premier professional sport when pro rugby got started.

The Scots will agree that superficially there is a comparison between Leinster, and particularly Edinburgh but also Glasgow in that rugby is concentrated in the middle class private schools. But, they will point out, that we have no idea of the total dominance of pro soccer in Scotland in all forms of the media and in sucking up sponsorship, and every other pound there to be spent on sport. They don't have, as all the Irish provinces do, the opportunity to collect up the mildly interested fan when soccer already has them. The point about the border towns being small has already been made, and the fact that they hate each other like local GAA teams at home, and have never suspended that hate for a bigger identity like the GAA counties have done. Not to say it couldn't be done but it would take time and money, none of which the SRU have ever had much of.

Regarding Wales, the cat was let out of the bag when Cardiff and Swansea both got into the English soccer premier league. The regions couldn't compete with the English superstar teams visiting Cardiff and Swansea every week, on top of the hames they made of regionalisation anyway. This on top of the Thatcher destruction of the economy of the Valleys, the coal and steel industries and the docks that services them, which meant fúck all local money in the regions anyway, and certainly not enough to compare with £ 50m or so each premier league team gets from TV rights alone.

Pro rugby in Ireland got lucky, primarily because it didn't have the big maw of professional soccer devouring all before, around and after it.

There's always been a bit of mythologising of Welsh rugby. Like Ireland, football is the real king, but because they're a bit shit, it gets less attention.

As you say, two teams on the cusp of or in the Premier League was a much bigger draw than rugby.

[Luckycharmer]

That is so cute and even a little bit proud that mullet spent his Saturday night searching my posts
I’ll admit I’m one of jacobs biggest critics basically because I know how good he can be but i can see his problem areas
With his flaws he still offers more potential than any of the back 3 options
The thing Leinster fans seem to struggle with is that you can support a player and also point out his flaws

Anyway late to party very busy, Stockdale definetly stronger ball in hand when he catches it. Before the game they showed 2 tries we conceded in our last 2 games against England from Stockdale F*ckups one from kick through he failed to gather and another he jogged back from another kick through over the line which he should have easily covered. Keenan got beaten 1 on 1 for a high ball by May but generally all other areas was pretty good and unlike Stockdale made his tackles. Is he the answer not sure but still prefer him a safe pair of hands at fullback to one who can score you a try and concede 2 each game.

[lorcanoworms]

Having discussed this with both Scottish and Welsh posters over the years, their view is that Ireland got lucky, we got lucky in not having professional soccer as the premier professional sport when pro rugby got started.

The Scots will agree that superficially there is a comparison between Leinster, and particularly Edinburgh but also Glasgow in that rugby is concentrated in the middle class private schools. But, they will point out, that we have no idea of the total dominance of pro soccer in Scotland in all forms of the media and in sucking up sponsorship, and every other pound there to be spent on sport. They don't have, as all the Irish provinces do, the opportunity to collect up the mildly interested fan when soccer already has them. The point about the border towns being small has already been made, and the fact that they hate each other like local GAA teams at home, and have never suspended that hate for a bigger identity like the GAA counties have done. Not to say it couldn't be done but it would take time and money, none of which the SRU have ever had much of.

Regarding Wales, the cat was let out of the bag when Cardiff and Swansea both got into the English soccer premier league. The regions couldn't compete with the English superstar teams visiting Cardiff and Swansea every week, on top of the hames they made of regionalisation anyway. This on top of the Thatcher destruction of the economy of the Valleys, the coal and steel industries and the docks that services them, which meant fúck all local money in the regions anyway, and certainly not enough to compare with £ 50m or so each premier league team gets from TV rights alone.

Pro rugby in Ireland got lucky, primarily because it didn't have the big maw of professional soccer devouring all before, around and after it.

All would have been meaningless if Ulster and then Munster hadn't shook things up by winning Heino's.

[Winnie]

Having discussed this with both Scottish and Welsh posters over the years, their view is that Ireland got lucky, we got lucky in not having professional soccer as the premier professional sport when pro rugby got started.

The Scots will agree that superficially there is a comparison between Leinster, and particularly Edinburgh but also Glasgow in that rugby is concentrated in the middle class private schools. But, they will point out, that we have no idea of the total dominance of pro soccer in Scotland in all forms of the media and in sucking up sponsorship, and every other pound there to be spent on sport. They don't have, as all the Irish provinces do, the opportunity to collect up the mildly interested fan when soccer already has them. The point about the border towns being small has already been made, and the fact that they hate each other like local GAA teams at home, and have never suspended that hate for a bigger identity like the GAA counties have done. Not to say it couldn't be done but it would take time and money, none of which the SRU have ever had much of.

Regarding Wales, the cat was let out of the bag when Cardiff and Swansea both got into the English soccer premier league. The regions couldn't compete with the English superstar teams visiting Cardiff and Swansea every week, on top of the hames they made of regionalisation anyway. This on top of the Thatcher destruction of the economy of the Valleys, the coal and steel industries and the docks that services them, which meant fúck all local money in the regions anyway, and certainly not enough to compare with £ 50m or so each premier league team gets from TV rights alone.

Pro rugby in Ireland got lucky, primarily because it didn't have the big maw of professional soccer devouring all before, around and after it.

There's always been a bit of mythologising of Welsh rugby. Like Ireland, football is the real king, but because they're a bit shit, it gets less attention.

As you say, two teams on the cusp of or in the Premier League was a much bigger draw than rugby.

I disagree
When I first moved to Wales over 20 years ago I was amazed at the position rugby sat in the welsh way of life
Man United could have been playing Cardiff, but the back of the Western Mail would have led with Llandovery against Pontypridd
The sports bulletins prioritised rugby
It was everywhere

Little by little thats been chipped away
The weakness of the regions
The rise of football, especially with Cardiff/Swansea getting into the premier league

They are still fair weather especially when the national team is playing in the 6N but even thats because Gatland had them top of the tree
If Wales have a few barren years in the 6N they are in big big trouble

[DOB]

All would have been meaningless if Ulster and then Munster hadn't shook things up by winning Heino's.

This. Go into any pub in D4 in the late 90s and you’d run into some alickadoo complaining about how the IRFU were trying to kill the clubs. Lads on the u20s would get slagged about missing club training because they’d been called up by “LINNNNNster.” If the provinces hadn’t started producing results around then, we might be lucky to be where Scotland are now.

[DeDoc]

I think the soccer thing gets overstated tbh. Soccer is massive here too, just that we don't have local soccer teams at quite the same level - mind you I think Wales only have about 3 teams in the professional soccer leagues, right? Look at how big Gaelic games are here and compare

Here is what whiskeypedia has to say about Cardiff City FC "During the 1980s, as the club struggled in the lower divisions of English football, crowds dropped to an average of 3,000 per match. An increase in the club's fortunes saw a steady improvement in crowd numbers. The average attendance at home matches rose from 3,594 to 12,522 between 1997 and 2002. Promotion to the second tier in 2003 brought further increases in numbers. The opening of the Cardiff City Stadium led to average attendances reaching 20,000 fans, culminating with highs of between 28,000 and 31,000 during two seasons in the Premier League"

Swansea City AFC have even smaller numbers.

Cardiff is a city of 480K people and Swansea is 250K. There are over 2M people living in the South Wales region from Carmarthernshire to Monmouthshire. Even in 2018/19 Blues, Scarlets and Ospreys averaged pretty similar crowds to Edinburgh and Glasgow.

Its bloody pathetic. Look at what the two Scottish teams have done. If you go back to the first Pro12 in 2011/12, Embra averaged 4K per game. In 18-19 they'd grown that to 6800. Glasgow were a little bit less than 4K and they've grown to 7700.

Connacht have gone from 4500 per game then to 6000 now.

Ospreys have gone from 8000 to 6800, Scarlets from 9K to 8500, Cardiff from 7200 to 7300, and Dragons from 6000 to 5100

[DeDoc]

All would have been meaningless if Ulster and then Munster hadn't shook things up by winning Heino's.

This. Go into any pub in D4 in the late 90s and you’d run into some alickadoo complaining about how the IRFU were trying to kill the clubs. Lads on the u20s would get slagged about missing club training because they’d been called up by “LINNNNNster.” If the provinces hadn’t started producing results around then, we might be lucky to be where Scotland are now.

That was true in all the countries though, with the move to pro rugby, which in theory was in 1996, but in reality took a fair bit longer to take hold properly. It wasn't like the progress was instant either - Cardiff and Scarlets, and the Galactico Ospreys were all competitive in Europe at various points before Ireland won their second HEC (even their first!).
and in the league, sure we dominated the first competition in 01/02, but it was pretty even in 02/03. In 03/04 when the Welsh regions were first assembled 5 of the top 6 at the end of the league were Welsh. The next year it was 3 of the top 5 (Munster and Leinster finishing 2nd and 3rd).

[anonymous_joe]

Having discussed this with both Scottish and Welsh posters over the years, their view is that Ireland got lucky, we got lucky in not having professional soccer as the premier professional sport when pro rugby got started.

The Scots will agree that superficially there is a comparison between Leinster, and particularly Edinburgh but also Glasgow in that rugby is concentrated in the middle class private schools. But, they will point out, that we have no idea of the total dominance of pro soccer in Scotland in all forms of the media and in sucking up sponsorship, and every other pound there to be spent on sport. They don't have, as all the Irish provinces do, the opportunity to collect up the mildly interested fan when soccer already has them. The point about the border towns being small has already been made, and the fact that they hate each other like local GAA teams at home, and have never suspended that hate for a bigger identity like the GAA counties have done. Not to say it couldn't be done but it would take time and money, none of which the SRU have ever had much of.

Regarding Wales, the cat was let out of the bag when Cardiff and Swansea both got into the English soccer premier league. The regions couldn't compete with the English superstar teams visiting Cardiff and Swansea every week, on top of the hames they made of regionalisation anyway. This on top of the Thatcher destruction of the economy of the Valleys, the coal and steel industries and the docks that services them, which meant fúck all local money in the regions anyway, and certainly not enough to compare with £ 50m or so each premier league team gets from TV rights alone.

Pro rugby in Ireland got lucky, primarily because it didn't have the big maw of professional soccer devouring all before, around and after it.

There's always been a bit of mythologising of Welsh rugby. Like Ireland, football is the real king, but because they're a bit shit, it gets less attention.

As you say, two teams on the cusp of or in the Premier League was a much bigger draw than rugby.

I disagree
When I first moved to Wales over 20 years ago I was amazed at the position rugby sat in the welsh way of life
Man United could have been playing Cardiff, but the back of the Western Mail would have led with Llandovery against Pontypridd
The sports bulletins prioritised rugby
It was everywhere

Little by little thats been chipped away
The weakness of the regions
The rise of football, especially with Cardiff/Swansea getting into the premier league

They are still fair weather especially when the national team is playing in the 6N but even thats because Gatland had them top of the tree
If Wales have a few barren years in the 6N they are in big big trouble

Happy to be corrected, but is the problem not that the attention placed on rugby doesn't reflect that most people are more into football?

Maybe it has changed over time.

[camroc1]

Clubs like Man U, Citeh, Liverpool, Everton, Arsenal, Spurs etc. coming to Cardiff/Swansea, on a weekly basis, shits from a height on anything the Pro 14 can produce, and would also do so in Dublin, Belfast, Cork or Limerick.

Similarly we have no idea of how Celtic/Rangers, and Hearts/Hibs dominate their cities sporting space, money, interest, media, attendance etc. etc. The GAA may be powerful, but is amateur. The LOI/IL are both semi-pro shambles. Probably more Irish people, north and south, travel to Scotland/England for Premier League football than attend matches in both leagues on a weekly basis.

Being the only serious pro sport in your area gives the IRFU an awful lot of advantages, and thank fúck for it, because all favours will need to be called in post covid to get our pro game humming again.

[Mullet 2]

Nah if you go out into the Valleys rugby is like GAA

Every village has a club it's the fabric. Soccer isn't like that.

[DOB]

All would have been meaningless if Ulster and then Munster hadn't shook things up by winning Heino's.

This. Go into any pub in D4 in the late 90s and you’d run into some alickadoo complaining about how the IRFU were trying to kill the clubs. Lads on the u20s would get slagged about missing club training because they’d been called up by “LINNNNNster.” If the provinces hadn’t started producing results around then, we might be lucky to be where Scotland are now.

That was true in all the countries though, with the move to pro rugby, which in theory was in 1996, but in reality took a fair bit longer to take hold properly. It wasn't like the progress was instant either - Cardiff and Scarlets, and the Galactico Ospreys were all competitive in Europe at various points before Ireland won their second HEC (even their first!).
and in the league, sure we dominated the first competition in 01/02, but it was pretty even in 02/03. In 03/04 when the Welsh regions were first assembled 5 of the top 6 at the end of the league were Welsh. The next year it was 3 of the top 5 (Munster and Leinster finishing 2nd and 3rd).

Wales have never won a HEC, though, and really never threatened to.

The league wouldn’t have got off the ground without the Cup runs by Munster and Ulster. There wouldn’t have been any enticement for the Welsh to get involved with us, if not for the crowds at the HEC games.

Their inability to pull crowds since then, has been the big problem with the sustainability of the league.

I’ve said for a long time, the best thing for the league would be fewer games, fewer clashes with Euro and Test windows, and more full strength lineups taking the field.

[anonymous_joe]

Nah if you go out into the Valleys rugby is like GAA

Every village has a club it's the fabric. Soccer isn't like that.

Urbanisation has done what the English couldn't.

[Bogbunny]

Nah if you go out into the Valleys rugby is like GAA

Every village has a club it's the fabric. Soccer isn't like that.

Ten, twenty years ago any Welshman or kiwi you met in any bar in the world you could have an informed banter about rugby.

Now not so much

[Hellraiser]

Good point there is a massive delusion of grandeur in welsh rugby that harks back to the 70s
These days success drives attendance and interest

Pro 14 is now competing against football
Swansea and Cardiff have both been in the premier league and the welsh national team is going well
The welsh have lost a large section of the next generation to football

I don't even think it's that any more. I genuinely think they are addicted to self-pity. It's like a drug. A warm, comforting blanket they can wrap themselves in where nothing about their situation is of their own making, but rather is someone, anybody else's, fault.

[Mullet 2]

Nah if you go out into the Valleys rugby is like GAA

Every village has a club it's the fabric. Soccer isn't like that.

Ten, twenty years ago any Welshman or kiwi you met in any bar in the world you could have an informed banter about rugby.

Now not so much

That's because you're an aul fella and you're not allowed in bars

[DeDoc]

Wales have never won a HEC, though, and really never threatened to.

The league wouldn’t have got off the ground without the Cup runs by Munster and Ulster. There wouldn’t have been any enticement for the Welsh to get involved with us, if not for the crowds at the HEC games.

Their inability to pull crowds since then, has been the big problem with the sustainability of the league.

I’ve said for a long time, the best thing for the league would be fewer games, fewer clashes with Euro and Test windows, and more full strength lineups taking the field.

I can't be arsed searching through the records, but Cardiff went to extra time with Toulouse in the inaugural one. Scarlets were semi-finalists a few times I think. Did Ospreys ever make a semi? Ultimately if your point is a win would/could have lifted their supporter base considerably, I'd agree.

Not so sure about the fewer games thing. It sounds good in principle, but if you do the sums:
~10 International games per year
- 6 European games+ any knockouts
- X league games

even if you take a 25 game ceiling for players, you're looking at 9 league games, maybe less (for those in the knockouts)
Genuine question - what size/format league are you thinking would work best?

[Luckycharmer]

Well done to former Templeogue and St Mary's rfc player getting called into the Irish squad

[DOB]

Wales have never won a HEC, though, and really never threatened to.

The league wouldn’t have got off the ground without the Cup runs by Munster and Ulster. There wouldn’t have been any enticement for the Welsh to get involved with us, if not for the crowds at the HEC games.

Their inability to pull crowds since then, has been the big problem with the sustainability of the league.

I’ve said for a long time, the best thing for the league would be fewer games, fewer clashes with Euro and Test windows, and more full strength lineups taking the field.

I can't be arsed searching through the records, but Cardiff went to extra time with Toulouse in the inaugural one. Scarlets were semi-finalists a few times I think. Did Ospreys ever make a semi? Ultimately if your point is a win would/could have lifted their supporter base considerably, I'd agree.

Not so sure about the fewer games thing. It sounds good in principle, but if you do the sums:
~10 International games per year
- 6 European games+ any knockouts
- X league games

even if you take a 25 game ceiling for players, you're looking at 9 league games, maybe less (for those in the knockouts)
Genuine question - what size/format league are you thinking would work best?

Scarlets had that semi that went to penalties against Tiggers. That was as close as they got. I didn't realise/remember the Cardiff-Toulouse final went to extra time.

The crucial thing was in that 02-07 period as the league was getting going, the Irish teams always seemed to do better in Europe than in the league, while the likes of BOD barely started a CL match; that kicked off the whole "The Irish don't take the league seriously," which took a good few years of Leinster and Munster dominating the final table (if not always the playoffs) (while still winning in Europe) to shake.

I'd like to see a 10-12 team league, playing each opponent once. If each club has 5 or 6 regular test starters, those players would still only ever play 6 or 7 league games anyway, but you might as well make that 6 or 7 games be a significant portion of the league. That way, if Jimmy Punter pays his money to bring the fam to a league game, there's at least a 50/50 chance Jimmy Jr will get to see his favourite player, and they're pretty much guaranteed to see 2 or 3 test starters on the home team, and on the visitors too.

[Luckycharmer]

Wales have never won a HEC, though, and really never threatened to.

The league wouldn’t have got off the ground without the Cup runs by Munster and Ulster. There wouldn’t have been any enticement for the Welsh to get involved with us, if not for the crowds at the HEC games.

Their inability to pull crowds since then, has been the big problem with the sustainability of the league.

I’ve said for a long time, the best thing for the league would be fewer games, fewer clashes with Euro and Test windows, and more full strength lineups taking the field.

I can't be arsed searching through the records, but Cardiff went to extra time with Toulouse in the inaugural one. Scarlets were semi-finalists a few times I think. Did Ospreys ever make a semi? Ultimately if your point is a win would/could have lifted their supporter base considerably, I'd agree.

Not so sure about the fewer games thing. It sounds good in principle, but if you do the sums:
~10 International games per year
- 6 European games+ any knockouts
- X league games

even if you take a 25 game ceiling for players, you're looking at 9 league games, maybe less (for those in the knockouts)
Genuine question - what size/format league are you thinking would work best?

Cardiff nearly won the 1st European final they lost in extra time to Toulouse. I remember being at the semifinal when they beat Leinster.

[camroc1]

Wales have never won a HEC, though, and really never threatened to.

The league wouldn’t have got off the ground without the Cup runs by Munster and Ulster. There wouldn’t have been any enticement for the Welsh to get involved with us, if not for the crowds at the HEC games.

Their inability to pull crowds since then, has been the big problem with the sustainability of the league.

I’ve said for a long time, the best thing for the league would be fewer games, fewer clashes with Euro and Test windows, and more full strength lineups taking the field.

I can't be arsed searching through the records, but Cardiff went to extra time with Toulouse in the inaugural one. Scarlets were semi-finalists a few times I think. Did Ospreys ever make a semi? Ultimately if your point is a win would/could have lifted their supporter base considerably, I'd agree.

Not so sure about the fewer games thing. It sounds good in principle, but if you do the sums:
~10 International games per year
- 6 European games+ any knockouts
- X league games

even if you take a 25 game ceiling for players, you're looking at 9 league games, maybe less (for those in the knockouts)
Genuine question - what size/format league are you thinking would work best?

Cardiff nearly won the 1st European final they lost in extra time to Toulouse. I remember being at the semifinal when they beat Leinster.

I remember having a bet with my old boss that Leinster would win. He told me we hadn't a chance against a proper pro team like Cardiff. He was correct.

[DOB]

I remember having a bet with my old boss that Leinster would win. He told me we hadn't a chance against a proper pro team like Cardiff. He was correct.

Ah, we had a chance. That was a good Leinster side, in good form, with some experienced heads and a few young bucks coming through (Miller and Wallace were test Lions within 2 years).

[camroc1]

I remember having a bet with my old boss that Leinster would win. He told me we hadn't a chance against a proper pro team like Cardiff. He was correct.

Ah, we had a chance. That was a good Leinster side, in good form, with some experienced heads and a few young bucks coming through (Miller and Wallace were test Lions within 2 years).

I was the one who lost the tenner !

We were still amateurs against a team who had been effectively pro for at least the previous 5 or 6 years (remember boot money ?). And it showed at the end. After that some of our players moved to English clubs as pros, some remained with their clubs in Leinster, and all would come together for the half dozen or so matches we played a year. It really wasn't until the Celtic League started that proper pro structures were put in the provinces, and that was driven by the unexpected but stupendous Ulster win in the HEC in '99; and Munsters subsequent Odyssey(s).

[DOB]

I remember having a bet with my old boss that Leinster would win. He told me we hadn't a chance against a proper pro team like Cardiff. He was correct.

Ah, we had a chance. That was a good Leinster side, in good form, with some experienced heads and a few young bucks coming through (Miller and Wallace were test Lions within 2 years).

I was the one who lost the tenner !

We were still amateurs against a team who had been effectively pro for at least the previous 5 or 6 years (remember boot money ?). And it showed at the end. After that some of our players moved to English clubs as pros, some remained with their clubs in Leinster, and all would come together for the half dozen or so matches we played a year. It really wasn't until the Celtic League started that proper pro structures were put in the provinces, and that was driven by the unexpected but stupendous Ulster win in the HEC in '99; and Munsters subsequent Odyssey(s).

There was also the top-down part of it; Gatland brought the players home. If all those lads who went to England had stayed there, Ulster and Leinster would've had no internationals to build their teams around. But at the same time, seeing the professionalism of the English clubs was an eye opener for a lot of our lads.

[SFBB]

Wales have never won a HEC, though, and really never threatened to.

The league wouldn’t have got off the ground without the Cup runs by Munster and Ulster. There wouldn’t have been any enticement for the Welsh to get involved with us, if not for the crowds at the HEC games.

Their inability to pull crowds since then, has been the big problem with the sustainability of the league.

I’ve said for a long time, the best thing for the league would be fewer games, fewer clashes with Euro and Test windows, and more full strength lineups taking the field.

I can't be arsed searching through the records, but Cardiff went to extra time with Toulouse in the inaugural one. Scarlets were semi-finalists a few times I think. Did Ospreys ever make a semi? Ultimately if your point is a win would/could have lifted their supporter base considerably, I'd agree.

Not so sure about the fewer games thing. It sounds good in principle, but if you do the sums:
~10 International games per year
- 6 European games+ any knockouts
- X league games

even if you take a 25 game ceiling for players, you're looking at 9 league games, maybe less (for those in the knockouts)
Genuine question - what size/format league are you thinking would work best?

Scarlets had that semi that went to penalties against Tiggers. That was as close as they got. I didn't realise/remember the Cardiff-Toulouse final went to extra time.

The crucial thing was in that 02-07 period as the league was getting going, the Irish teams always seemed to do better in Europe than in the league, while the likes of BOD barely started a CL match; that kicked off the whole "The Irish don't take the league seriously," which took a good few years of Leinster and Munster dominating the final table (if not always the playoffs) (while still winning in Europe) to shake.

I'd like to see a 10-12 team league, playing each opponent once. If each club has 5 or 6 regular test starters, those players would still only ever play 6 or 7 league games anyway, but you might as well make that 6 or 7 games be a significant portion of the league. That way, if Jimmy Punter pays his money to bring the fam to a league game, there's at least a 50/50 chance Jimmy Jr will get to see his favourite player, and they're pretty much guaranteed to see 2 or 3 test starters on the home team, and on the visitors too.

This is largely what I would like to see. Have the games you play as “Munster” or “Ospreys” actually mean something consistently. Have a reserves competition for the academy lads coming through.

Hard to know how that would effect the value of the games commercially.

[CM11]

DOB

On your 02-07 comment, you've added a season and missed out that in 06 it was an Irish 1-2-3. Leinster finished 3 off the top in 07 too.

It's really only 03/04 and 04/05 that we didn't challenge massively but even then Ulster challenged in 03/04.

I guess the initial impression may not have helped with Munster and Leinster but we did give the whole thing legitimacy in the first place under the old format.

[Duff Paddy]

Well done to former Templeogue and St Mary's rfc player getting called into the Irish squad

It’s good news but it’s a real shame that Templeogue isn’t really a rugby school anymore

[Jeff the Bear]

Wales have never won a HEC, though, and really never threatened to.

The league wouldn’t have got off the ground without the Cup runs by Munster and Ulster. There wouldn’t have been any enticement for the Welsh to get involved with us, if not for the crowds at the HEC games.

Their inability to pull crowds since then, has been the big problem with the sustainability of the league.

I’ve said for a long time, the best thing for the league would be fewer games, fewer clashes with Euro and Test windows, and more full strength lineups taking the field.

I can't be arsed searching through the records, but Cardiff went to extra time with Toulouse in the inaugural one. Scarlets were semi-finalists a few times I think. Did Ospreys ever make a semi? Ultimately if your point is a win would/could have lifted their supporter base considerably, I'd agree.

Not so sure about the fewer games thing. It sounds good in principle, but if you do the sums:
~10 International games per year
- 6 European games+ any knockouts
- X league games

even if you take a 25 game ceiling for players, you're looking at 9 league games, maybe less (for those in the knockouts)
Genuine question - what size/format league are you thinking would work best?

Scarlets had that semi that went to penalties against Tiggers. That was as close as they got. I didn't realise/remember the Cardiff-Toulouse final went to extra time.

The crucial thing was in that 02-07 period as the league was getting going, the Irish teams always seemed to do better in Europe than in the league, while the likes of BOD barely started a CL match; that kicked off the whole "The Irish don't take the league seriously," which took a good few years of Leinster and Munster dominating the final table (if not always the playoffs) (while still winning in Europe) to shake.

I'd like to see a 10-12 team league, playing each opponent once. If each club has 5 or 6 regular test starters, those players would still only ever play 6 or 7 league games anyway, but you might as well make that 6 or 7 games be a significant portion of the league. That way, if Jimmy Punter pays his money to bring the fam to a league game, there's at least a 50/50 chance Jimmy Jr will get to see his favourite player, and they're pretty much guaranteed to see 2 or 3 test starters on the home team, and on the visitors too.

This is how I'd want to see it...however, I fear the horse has bolted on this one.

It's a chicken and egg issue now. Essentially the TV companies dictate how many games there are, and for them its all about as much content as they can get their hands on. You'd need to make a strong argument that fewer games of higher quality would get equivalent punters through the door willing to pay more per month subscriptions to offset the part of the year where there wouldn't be any games due to less games (and potentially less subscriptions)...however, you couldn't possibly make that argument when you've got Welsh crowd numbers on their arse, and thr Sweaties not far behind.