ex-POTUS DONALD TRUMP-and U.S. Politics catch-all

[Ted.]

There should be a law that makes people accountable for their lies.

Well, online anonymity has to disappear then.

Online freedoms are going to be clamped down on and restricted in the aftermath of this. It's inevitable, and it's not just going to be the bad ones that will apply to. Senate Democrats signaled that way and Republicans before this were wanting digital media reform anyway (just a different type of reform). Already read a thing this morning the EU Parliament acted in this sphere.

The EU reforms are awful. They achieved none of the actual outcomes they were after and effectively made the problems they were trying to fix work.

If you outlaw ‘lying’ then you are going against the 1st Amendment - now the government can arrest you for what you say. Freedom of speech is dead - now only speech that is ‘true’ is free.
So who becomes the arbiter of what is true? The Trump appointed judges? Trump himself? Do we set up a Truth Commission or perhaps a Council of Public Safety? Is it Mark Zuckerberg and Jack Dorsey that decides?

Truth isn’t clear cut. What are things that all people can agree is true? Man walked on the moon? The earth is round? The theory of evolution? Jesus is lord? Trump incited a riot?

In reality, truth is usually subjective. Sometimes it comes down to different viewpoints seeing a ‘fact’ very differently. It’s a slippery slope.

Do you want ‘lying’ to be a crime when Donald Trump gets to decide what is true?

Don't Courts of Law deal every day with trying to establish the truth? That wouldn't be new.

They're not doing that. Probably end up being some algorithm that as YouTube showed harms the innocent just as much as the guilty.

Few years ago a middle school student (13 or so) at my wife's school she was a counselor at setup a fake sccount of "a parent of a girl at the school" accusing my wife of strip searching young girls. (My wife was investigating allegations of cutting, which would involve the girls changing clothes in another room putting on shorts.) The school district in the end investigated and said it was all bullshit, local digital newspaper publishes this. But the page on Facebook was still up. I reported this fake page to Facebook 5 or 6 times. They never took it down. Whether it's still up or not, I don’t know, it's been a few years and I've forgotten the name.

Well that is just rank behaviour, abetting rank behaviour, on FB's part. Did you threaten legal action?

[DOB]

The shaudenfruede is strong about this one... indeed most beautiful and joyous.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/trump-wo ... 7d85ecbe46

I am so aroused right now.

It’s as wonderful as it is predictable. And it was always very predictable.

[Miester]

You can only imagine the shit Giuliani has on Trump FFS!, just how stupid is he refusing to pay?

[fonzeee]

Oh and PS re: AOC:

Rather than pursing higher office, there were murmurs recently that she's actually considering walking away from politics. Apparently she's grown tired of all the media attention and scrutiny and is somewhat disillusioned by the pushback against her from within the party.

There's a 0% chance she'd ever come anywhere close to the nomination BTW.

[Fat Old Git]

You can only imagine the shit Giuliani has on Trump FFS!, just how stupid is he refusing to pay?

Perhaps he doesn't actually have any money to pay him with.

[UncleFB]

Can't see america electing a socialist ever. She's a child in an adult's body.

She's 5'3

Don't agree with that, she's an 8 at least.

GTFO, 6 maybe if you ignore the giant teeth.

Ah goddamnit not this debate again -- this was the whole thing that started the Latina posts. The debate's over fellas, I have decreed that she's an (American) 6 and a Latina 4.

Case closed.

You ruled yourself out of commenting on this by entering Ben Shapiro's sister into this thread.

[DOB]

Dershowitz bailing on Trump now.

https://twitter.com/anniekarni/status/1 ... 4347171225

[Fat Old Git]

It's nice that Trump did manage another historic double. His family must be so proud.

[fonzeee]

You ruled yourself out of commenting on this by entering Ben Shapiro's sister into this thread.

Look, I like big boobs, okay? (or, as they were termed on one of the less-disturbing Google image results that came up for her, yiddies)

But I guess my predilection for Mediterranean-and-adjacent ladies means I possibly have a bit of a thing for Jewish chicks. I am for instance an Abella Danger enthusiast (if you're at work or next to wife, please note this is a pron star).

Guess I never realized this as the only Jews I ever met before coming to Boston were my pediatrician and my orthodontist. Sad but true.

[flaggETERNAL]

The shaudenfruede is strong about this one... indeed most beautiful and joyous.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/trump-wo ... 7d85ecbe46

I am shocked, shocked at this news.

[kiap]

You ruled yourself out of commenting on this by entering Ben Shapiro's sister into this thread.

Look, I like big boobs, okay? (or, as they were termed on one of the less-disturbing Google image results that came up for her, yiddies)

But I guess my predilection for Mediterranean-and-adjacent ladies means I possibly have a bit of a thing for Jewish chicks. I am for instance an Abella Danger enthusiast (if you're at work or next to wife, please note this is a pron star).

Guess I never realized this as the only Jews I ever met before coming to Boston were my pediatrician and my orthodontist. Sad but true.

Yeah your shapiro-uette burd was a 5, on whatever measure.

She's okay, sure. But mininal buzz, low tingle.

[towny]

Yep. Not confined to politicians either. It's like dealing with children.

There should be a law that makes people accountable for their lies.

Well, online anonymity has to disappear then.

Online freedoms are going to be clamped down on and restricted in the aftermath of this. It's inevitable, and it's not just going to be the bad ones that will apply to. Senate Democrats signaled that way and Republicans before this were wanting digital media reform anyway (just a different type of reform). Already read a thing this morning the EU Parliament acted in this sphere.

The EU reforms are awful. They achieved none of the actual outcomes they were after and effectively made the problems they were trying to fix work.

If you outlaw ‘lying’ then you are going against the 1st Amendment - now the government can arrest you for what you say. Freedom of speech is dead - now only speech that is ‘true’ is free.
So who becomes the arbiter of what is true? The Trump appointed judges? Trump himself? Do we set up a Truth Commission or perhaps a Council of Public Safety? Is it Mark Zuckerberg and Jack Dorsey that decides?

Truth isn’t clear cut. What are things that all people can agree is true? Man walked on the moon? The earth is round? The theory of evolution? Jesus is lord? Trump incited a riot?

In reality, truth is usually subjective. Sometimes it comes down to different viewpoints seeing a ‘fact’ very differently. It’s a slippery slope.

Do you want ‘lying’ to be a crime when Donald Trump gets to decide what is true?

Don't Courts of Law deal every day with trying to establish the truth? That wouldn't be new.

Yes, the jury is the arbiter of truth. Do you think juries should be trusted to decide if something was a lie? How many new courthouses would we need to build? Who decides on what lie is significant enough to be worth arrest? If the jury decides what’s true or not in court, then how would someone else go about deciding what is true?

Would it be all lies or just politicians? Would it be white lies or would we hold every word to account?

What would the gain be? What price are you willing to pay for this prize? Sounds like we could be living in a very oppressed society.

[UncleFB]

You ruled yourself out of commenting on this by entering Ben Shapiro's sister into this thread.

Look, I like big boobs, okay? (or, as they were termed on one of the less-disturbing Google image results that came up for her, yiddies)

But I guess my predilection for Mediterranean-and-adjacent ladies means I possibly have a bit of a thing for Jewish chicks. I am for instance an Abella Danger enthusiast (if you're at work or next to wife, please note this is a pron star).

Guess I never realized this as the only Jews I ever met before coming to Boston were my pediatrician and my orthodontist. Sad but true.

Fair enough.

[towny]

Yep. Not confined to politicians either. It's like dealing with children.

There should be a law that makes people accountable for their lies.

Well, online anonymity has to disappear then.

Online freedoms are going to be clamped down on and restricted in the aftermath of this. It's inevitable, and it's not just going to be the bad ones that will apply to. Senate Democrats signaled that way and Republicans before this were wanting digital media reform anyway (just a different type of reform). Already read a thing this morning the EU Parliament acted in this sphere.

The EU reforms are awful. They achieved none of the actual outcomes they were after and effectively made the problems they were trying to fix work.

If you outlaw ‘lying’ then you are going against the 1st Amendment - now the government can arrest you for what you say. Freedom of speech is dead - now only speech that is ‘true’ is free.
So who becomes the arbiter of what is true? The Trump appointed judges? Trump himself? Do we set up a Truth Commission or perhaps a Council of Public Safety? Is it Mark Zuckerberg and Jack Dorsey that decides?

Truth isn’t clear cut. What are things that all people can agree is true? Man walked on the moon? The earth is round? The theory of evolution? Jesus is lord? Trump incited a riot?

In reality, truth is usually subjective. Sometimes it comes down to different viewpoints seeing a ‘fact’ very differently. It’s a slippery slope.

Do you want ‘lying’ to be a crime when Donald Trump gets to decide what is true?

Was thinking about this this evening. If misinformation should be removed by platforms, all these things and people that post them should in theory be forcibly removed to remain logically consistent:

-9/11 Truthers
-we never landed on the moon people
-pretty much all JFK conspiracy theorists
-everyone that disputed the 2000 and 2004 elections in the U.S.

How do you prove that these are lies or misinformation? If someone genuinely believes them, is it misinformation?

This push for censorship is futile and will only result in empowering someone that nobody will want empowered.

[fonzeee]

You ruled yourself out of commenting on this by entering Ben Shapiro's sister into this thread.

Look, I like big boobs, okay? (or, as they were termed on one of the less-disturbing Google image results that came up for her, yiddies)

But I guess my predilection for Mediterranean-and-adjacent ladies means I possibly have a bit of a thing for Jewish chicks. I am for instance an Abella Danger enthusiast (if you're at work or next to wife, please note this is a pron star).

Guess I never realized this as the only Jews I ever met before coming to Boston were my pediatrician and my orthodontist. Sad but true.

Yeah your shapiro-uette burd was a 5, on whatever measure.

She's okay, sure. But mininal buzz, low tingle.

It was purely in response to somebody subjecting us to Ben's ugly mug, but all of your responses have been noted folks. I hereby apologize and promise wholeheartedly to return to the bored-renowned standards of babe-posting that you have all come to expect from me.

[Kiwias]

The shaudenfruede is strong about this one... indeed most beautiful and joyous.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/trump-wo ... 7d85ecbe46

[Jensrsa]

Mike Pence for President

[flaggETERNAL]

Mike Pence for President

Good one. This idea that Pence is some kind of hero is ridiculous!

[kiap]

You ruled yourself out of commenting on this by entering Ben Shapiro's sister into this thread.

Look, I like big boobs, okay? (or, as they were termed on one of the less-disturbing Google image results that came up for her, yiddies)

But I guess my predilection for Mediterranean-and-adjacent ladies means I possibly have a bit of a thing for Jewish chicks. I am for instance an Abella Danger enthusiast (if you're at work or next to wife, please note this is a pron star).

Guess I never realized this as the only Jews I ever met before coming to Boston were my pediatrician and my orthodontist. Sad but true.

Yeah your shapiro-uette burd was a 5, on whatever measure.

She's okay, sure. But mininal buzz, low tingle.

It was purely in response to somebody subjecting us to Ben's ugly mug, but all of your responses have been noted folks. I hereby apologize and promise wholeheartedly to return to the bored-renowned standards of babe-posting that you have all come to expect from me.

(am just mucking around with this stuff, Fonz, .. as I'm sure you are also)

[feckwanker]

Merry still manning his post, fighting on until the last round is expended.

He must be devastated - he believes that Trump was playing us all and that it was all part of his big plan but the reality is slowly dawning on him; it's over.

[ovalball]

Merry still manning his post, fighting on until the last round is expended.

He must be devastated - he believes that Trump was playing us all and that it was all part of his big plan but the reality is slowly dawning on him; it's over.

He thought Trump was playing 5D chess - turns out that it was just Snakes and Ladders'.

[obelixtim]

You can only imagine the shit Giuliani has on Trump FFS!, just how stupid is he refusing to pay?

Idiot does what idiots do. Rudy will know where all the bodies are buried. The only thing that might save Trump is that Rudys credibility is shot to hell.

[Leinster in London]

What did Hilary have to say about The Don's failure to admit defeat?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZf7IASx2mE

A fuller picture is here where Donald shows consistency and foresight.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdvHQl6ZVhc

[Yer Man]

Merry still manning his post, fighting on until the last round is expended.

He must be devastated - he believes that Trump was playing us all and that it was all part of his big plan but the reality is slowly dawning on him; it's over.

He thought Trump was playing 5D chess - turns out that it was just Snakes and Ladders'.

More like Draughts.

And he's just been huffed.

[message #2527204]

Well, online anonymity has to disappear then.

Online freedoms are going to be clamped down on and restricted in the aftermath of this. It's inevitable, and it's not just going to be the bad ones that will apply to. Senate Democrats signaled that way and Republicans before this were wanting digital media reform anyway (just a different type of reform). Already read a thing this morning the EU Parliament acted in this sphere.

The EU reforms are awful. They achieved none of the actual outcomes they were after and effectively made the problems they were trying to fix work.

If you outlaw ‘lying’ then you are going against the 1st Amendment - now the government can arrest you for what you say. Freedom of speech is dead - now only speech that is ‘true’ is free.
So who becomes the arbiter of what is true? The Trump appointed judges? Trump himself? Do we set up a Truth Commission or perhaps a Council of Public Safety? Is it Mark Zuckerberg and Jack Dorsey that decides?

Truth isn’t clear cut. What are things that all people can agree is true? Man walked on the moon? The earth is round? The theory of evolution? Jesus is lord? Trump incited a riot?

In reality, truth is usually subjective. Sometimes it comes down to different viewpoints seeing a ‘fact’ very differently. It’s a slippery slope.

Do you want ‘lying’ to be a crime when Donald Trump gets to decide what is true?

Don't Courts of Law deal every day with trying to establish the truth? That wouldn't be new.

They're not doing that. Probably end up being some algorithm that as YouTube showed harms the innocent just as much as the guilty.

Few years ago a middle school student (13 or so) at my wife's school she was a counselor at setup a fake sccount of "a parent of a girl at the school" accusing my wife of strip searching young girls. (My wife was investigating allegations of cutting, which would involve the girls changing clothes in another room putting on shorts.) The school district in the end investigated and said it was all bullshit, local digital newspaper publishes this. But the page on Facebook was still up. I reported this fake page to Facebook 5 or 6 times. They never took it down. Whether it's still up or not, I don’t know, it's been a few years and I've forgotten the name.

Well that is just rank behaviour, abetting rank behaviour, on FB's part. Did you threaten legal action?

It s appalling. However, Towny argues that anyone has the right under 1st amendment to post what they wish.

[4071]

Merry still manning his post, fighting on until the last round is expended.

He must be devastated - he believes that Trump was playing us all and that it was all part of his big plan but the reality is slowly dawning on him; it's over.

He thought Trump was playing 5D chess - turns out that it was just Snakes and Ladders'.

Mostly just 'Snakes'

[TheFrog]

You can only imagine the shit Giuliani has on Trump FFS!, just how stupid is he refusing to pay?

Idiot does what idiots do. Rudy will know where all the bodies are buried. The only thing that might save Trump is that Rudys credibility is shot to hell.

Remember Trump is the President and may have access to enough information to bury Giuliani too.

And I wonder whether this is not one of the tools he uses to force some Republicans to display loyalty.

[ovalball]

You can only imagine the shit Giuliani has on Trump FFS!, just how stupid is he refusing to pay?

Idiot does what idiots do. Rudy will know where all the bodies are buried. The only thing that might save Trump is that Rudys credibility is shot to hell.

Remember Trump is the President and may have access to enough information to bury Giuliani too.

And I wonder whether this is not one of the tools he uses to force some Republicans to display loyalty.

Loyalty is very much a one way street in Trumpworld.

[TheFrog]

Towny,

I understand and see your point and you are absolutely right that fighting lies carries the risk of arming dictators with the possibility to institutionalize their own truth.

That being said, and this was the reference to Courts of Law having to try to establish facts (truth) beyond reasonable doubt, there are precedents already in the matter, in particular with libel or slander. Most of the cases are civil cases by the way and do not involve a jury.

For sure, you want to avoid that this becomes a way to sue left, right and center, make American lawyers richer and paralyze the whole system.

You are also right that this should not prevent people from expression their opinion, their understanding or questioning established theories to seek ... the actual truth. After all, we have the sad precedent of Copernicus' censorship to bear in mind when venturing on these grounds.

Yet, at the same time, can we a allow nut cases or manipulators to spread lies that fuel hatred and harm people or institutions? Can we say all truth are relative. That there was never a "Final Solution", that the earth is flat or closer to us, that Hillary runs a pedophile ring?

I am astounded by the amount of open lies in the US system. On one side, this is the beauty of the 1st Amendment but on the other it threatens to throw the US into civil war.

A law censoring spreading wildly proven lies could be healthy, provided it is properly drafted and protects people's rights to their opinion. It could simply, for a start, put the burden of the proof on the people posting affirmations on the net, or claiming them on public speeches. It may seem a nuance, but there is a difference between saying "the earth is flat" and "i believe that the earth is flat". Then there could be an opportunity for the wounded party, or any party wishing to challenge a lie spreading through the crowds, to sue in court to establish the truth and, if truth can be established beyond reasonable doubt, to obtain censorship of the lies (i.e prohibition to further spread the lie under threat of penalty). Finally, it would be healthy to bring back the Fairness Act and enlarge its scope requiring any person going public to balance their claims by stating the other side view on the matter.


[Just as an example of how far courts of law go today, a friend of mine acted as the lawyer of a fruit shop that was delivered bananas instead of apples. The fruits supplier still wanted to be paid, and refused to take the bananas back, and this ended up in court with the fruits supplier arguing they had delivered apples and not bananas. Well the case wasn't that straight forward and while it was easy to prove what had been delivered, it proved harder to prove that these indeed were bananas and not apple. That is where my friend discovered that apples can have all sorts of shape or color, and this was before DNA testing which may have saved him time!]

[Yer Man]

You can only imagine the shit Giuliani has on Trump FFS!, just how stupid is he refusing to pay?

Idiot does what idiots do. Rudy will know where all the bodies are buried. The only thing that might save Trump is that Rudys credibility is shot to hell.

Remember Trump is the President and may have access to enough information to bury Giuliani too.

And I wonder whether this is not one of the tools he uses to force some Republicans to display loyalty.

So Trump hasn't given Rudy the pardon he's been begging for.
And won't pay him either.

This time next week the FBI can offer Rudy immunity from prosecution in exchange for testimony...

Be "interesting" to see how this develops.

[ovalball]

You can only imagine the shit Giuliani has on Trump FFS!, just how stupid is he refusing to pay?

Idiot does what idiots do. Rudy will know where all the bodies are buried. The only thing that might save Trump is that Rudys credibility is shot to hell.

Remember Trump is the President and may have access to enough information to bury Giuliani too.

And I wonder whether this is not one of the tools he uses to force some Republicans to display loyalty.

So Trump hasn't given Rudy the pardon he's been begging for.
And won't pay him either.

This time next week the FBI can offer Rudy immunity from prosecution in exchange for testimony...

Be "interesting" to see how this develops.

Maybe he'll offer him immunity in lieu of payment !!

[Thomas]

They're eating each other. This is gonna be great. Can't wait to see the sextapes.

[Gospel]

They're eating each other. This is gonna be great. Can't wait to see the sextapes.

Why did you put that in my head?!

[Kiwias]

Mike Pence for President

He did not do something that legally and constitutionally he is not permitted to do. What a hero!

[4071]

They're eating each other. This is gonna be great. Can't wait to see the sextapes.

Rudi's or Trump's?



Or maybe it's the one tape with the both of them.

[Anonymous 1]

Poor Donald its all falling apart. Its at times like this he needs the support of Merry Mike Santa and fatcat

[Floppykid]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtCeOJBt30o

Bellingcat combing through the videos of the riots, this one is kind of funny.
Some of these people are so dumb

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HM_rkDQJdBs

This guy is a complete asshole.

These people must be the happiest in many ways, breezing through life with no thought of consequence. Not giving a shit. Well now it's caught up I guess.

[Waratah]

How do you prove that these are lies or misinformation? If someone genuinely believes them, is it misinformation?

This push for censorship is futile and will only result in empowering someone that nobody will want empowered.

Morning,Towns.

Did you really just ask, 'If someone genuinely believes [something], is it misinformation?', as if reality was just a matter of belief?

[Floppykid]

I'm of the view "deplatforming" works largely. Particularly if it stops people who should be in positions of high power and consequence spewing misinfo unchallenged/unregulated.

Calling bans from twitter, a glorified private forum, "censorship" is nonsense.

[BokJock]

Mike Pence for President

He did not do something that legally and constitutionally he is not permitted to do. What a hero!

Lincoln Project absolutely knocking it out the park there