NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

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koroke hangareka
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by koroke hangareka »

Tehui wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 2:00 am
Ali's Choice wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 10:52 pm World Rugby already has rules prohibiting Trans people from playing at the elite levels of the game. You cannot represent your country or play professionally if you are Trans. So what more do the anti-trans posters want? For Rugby to be closed off from Transgender people at every level of the game? It's simply untenable to tell trans women that they are women in every other aspect of their life, except Rugby.
I'm not anti-Trans, but maybe we should be asking female rugby players how they feel playing against trans-women who have biological advantages due to being born a man?
Ali's position is tenable, it's a pity he can't seem to defend it without misrepresenting posters who have a different view.
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by Anonymous 1 »

Ali's Choice wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 10:52 pm Some pretty unsavoury and discriminatory comments are flowing on this thread now. This thread was always going to be an invitation for some posters to kick Transgender people.

Two quick questions,

1. So both Trans Men and Trans women have to play as men? Or are you happy for fully transitioned men to play as women because they were born with female genitals?

2. If we force Transgender Women to play Rugby against men, are we also dead-naming them on the team list and forcing them to shower and get changed with men? Or do we allow them to use female change facilities? If we're going to humiliate them we may as well go the whole hog, yeah?

World Rugby already has rules prohibiting Trans people from playing at the elite levels of the game. You cannot represent your country or play professionally if you are Trans. So what more do the anti-trans posters want? For Rugby to be closed off from Transgender people at every level of the game? It's simply untenable to tell trans women that they are women in every other aspect of their life, except Rugby.

Would you tell your daughter to give up playing rugby if she wasnt happy playing against these former men or tell her to start up a campaign to have leagues where women who were born as women played against women.
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by Tehui »

Would be interesting to see the Black Ferns adorned with new players such as Danielle Coles, Samantha Cane, Josephine Moody, Georgina Bridge and Patricia Tuipulotu.
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by Ali's Choice »

Anonymous 1 wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 2:08 am Would you tell your daughter to give up playing rugby if she wasnt happy playing against these former men or tell her to start up a campaign to have leagues where women who were born as women played against women.
I'm not saying it's an easy situation.

In Australia trans women play with biological women in club Rugby and there isn't issue. We don't have slim young girls being destroyed by big butch Fa'afafine's. World Rugby prohibits Transgender people playing at international and pro-level, but I assume that will eventually be overturned in the courts. If a transgender woman is legally considered a woman then sports bodies will have to figure out a way to include them in women's sports.
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by Anonymous 1 »

Ali's Choice wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 3:03 am
Anonymous 1 wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 2:08 am Would you tell your daughter to give up playing rugby if she wasnt happy playing against these former men or tell her to start up a campaign to have leagues where women who were born as women played against women.
I'm not saying it's an easy situation.

In Australia trans women play with biological women in club Rugby and there isn't issue. We don't have slim young girls being destroyed by big butch Fa'afafine's. World Rugby prohibits Transgender people playing at international and pro-level, but I assume that will eventually be overturned in the courts. If a transgender woman is legally considered a woman then sports bodies will have to figure out a way to include them in women's sports.
Is there some global law where all countries will have to recognise transgender women as female ? Im guessing each country makes up there own shit.

Campaign hard and do your best to shout people down by calling them bigots for not agreeing with you. Could work
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by Tehui »

Anonymous 1 wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 4:00 am
Ali's Choice wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 3:03 am
Anonymous 1 wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 2:08 am Would you tell your daughter to give up playing rugby if she wasnt happy playing against these former men or tell her to start up a campaign to have leagues where women who were born as women played against women.
I'm not saying it's an easy situation.

In Australia trans women play with biological women in club Rugby and there isn't issue. We don't have slim young girls being destroyed by big butch Fa'afafine's. World Rugby prohibits Transgender people playing at international and pro-level, but I assume that will eventually be overturned in the courts. If a transgender woman is legally considered a woman then sports bodies will have to figure out a way to include them in women's sports.
Is there some global law where all countries will have to recognise transgender women as female ? Im guessing each country makes up there own shit.

Campaign hard and do your best to shout people down by calling them bigots for not agreeing with you. Could work
Agree. People who were born as men shouldn't be playing rugby against people who have been female their whole life. Just because something is 'legal' doesn't make it 'ethical'.
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by booji boy »

Is there any scientific data available on how much weaker these transgender women become after undergoing their sex change operation/hormone therapy?

How much is Hubbard's weightlifting performance affected compared to if she had remained a male and carried on competing in mens weight lifting?

This thread is creating some pretty heated and emotional debate but it seems ridiculous to me that a male athlete that is just an also ran, mediocre athlete in his chosen sport is suddenly an Olympic standard athlete when he/she becomes transgender and begins competing with the women.
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by bimboman »

Ali's Choice wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 11:18 pm
Sandstorm wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 11:08 pm
Ali's Choice wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 11:03 pm As an educator, I just wanted to make the point that here in QLD transgender students are the most at risk cohort of suicide, self harm, depression and mental illness. Trans people suffer immense discrimination. I'm just glad that some of the utter cvnts on this thread, who are calling them geezers etc, don't have anything to do with supporting transgender people in real life. Because some of your attitudes suck.
I support transgender people. I don’t support them playing in a league that their gender gives them unfair advantage. If that causes them to be depressed then I’m very sorry.
I don't think it's possible to genuinely support transgender people, and to support excluding them from a lawful recreational activity or even worse, make them participate as a different gender.


Nothing about sport rules is to do with “gender”
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by Jerome Manning »

Ali, do you see people potentially abusing your logic if they are sentenced to prison? A man all of a sudden deciding he is transgender because he would rather be in a womens prison?

I am not saying that that is ethical or right. Just that someone will try to do it.
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by Dobbin »

Tehui wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 2:00 am
Ali's Choice wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 10:52 pm World Rugby already has rules prohibiting Trans people from playing at the elite levels of the game. You cannot represent your country or play professionally if you are Trans. So what more do the anti-trans posters want? For Rugby to be closed off from Transgender people at every level of the game? It's simply untenable to tell trans women that they are women in every other aspect of their life, except Rugby.
I'm not anti-Trans, but maybe we should be asking female rugby players how they feel playing against trans-women who have biological advantages due to being born a man?
Why on earth would you ask females what they think? That's soooo last century
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by Ali's Choice »

Jerome Manning wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 7:34 am Ali, do you see people potentially abusing your logic if they are sentenced to prison? A man all of a sudden deciding he is transgender because he would rather be in a womens prison?

I am not saying that that is ethical or right. Just that someone will try to do it.
That someone would need to convince a judge that they had lived their life as a woman prior to being sentences. Of course there are many examples of the reverse of what you're saying, of fully transitioned women going to jail in men's prisons. I would imagine they'd suffer terribly in that context.
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by danny_fitz »

A lot of this debate is around the pro sports level with talk of testosterone testing and other forms of policing to ensure a 'fair' contest. How is this going to work in the local amateur area? I am the captain of my rowing club, we have various competitive squads from Novice level through to seniors aiming to compete at for national honours or at Henley. They are all amateur and want to win and are training both on and off the water to achieve that. The sport demands a huge amount of time and commitment in order to be competitive, even at the novice level. I don't think many of the women at my club will be too impressed if they found themselves on the start line competing against a boat with a transwomen in it. Just because they are racing at a non pro level it does not mean they are not competitive. I know that they would be pissed off that those hundreds of hours training in shite conditions through the winter was for nothing when come the sprint season they effectively get beaten in the first 20 strokes of the race due to the 95kg transwomen in the 4 seat who can pull a sub 6.30 2k erg test. My wife rows, she weighs about 61kg, most of her crew are similar in weight, they collectively average about 7.55 for the same 2k test. I also no for a fact that they would overwhelmingly feel very uncomfortable sharing changing rooms with a biological male.
Last edited by danny_fitz on Sun May 09, 2021 8:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by Ali's Choice »

danny_fitz wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 8:27 am A lot of this debate is around the pro sports level with talk of testosterone testing and other forms of policing to ensure a 'fair' contest. How is this going to work in the local amateur area? I am the captain of my rowing club, we have various competitive squads from Novice level through to seniors aiming to compete at for national honours or at Henley. They are all amateur and want to win and are training both on and off the water to achieve that. The sport demands a huge amount of time and commitment in order to be competitive. Even at the novice level where you take part in local lower grade regattas I don't think many of the women at my club will be too impressed if they found themselves on the start line competing against a boat with a transwomen in it. Just because they are racing at a non pro level it does not mean they are not competitive. I know that they would be pissed off that those hundreds of hours training in shite conditions through the winter was for nothing when come the sprint season they effectively get beaten in the first 20 strokes of the race due to the 95kg transwomen in the 4 seat who can pull a sub 6.30 2k erg test. My wife rows, she weighs about 61kg, most of her crew are similar in weight, they collectively average about 7.55 for the same 2k test. I also no for a fact that they would overwhelmingly feel very uncomfortable sharing changing rooms with a biological male.
I'm sure that some passengers were very uncomfortable when Rosa Parks refused to vacate her seat for white passengers when she was told to back in 1955. We've moved on from the civil rights movement and in time we will move on from treating transgender people like second rate citizens.
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by danny_fitz »

Ali's Choice wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 8:31 am
danny_fitz wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 8:27 am A lot of this debate is around the pro sports level with talk of testosterone testing and other forms of policing to ensure a 'fair' contest. How is this going to work in the local amateur area? I am the captain of my rowing club, we have various competitive squads from Novice level through to seniors aiming to compete at for national honours or at Henley. They are all amateur and want to win and are training both on and off the water to achieve that. The sport demands a huge amount of time and commitment in order to be competitive. Even at the novice level where you take part in local lower grade regattas I don't think many of the women at my club will be too impressed if they found themselves on the start line competing against a boat with a transwomen in it. Just because they are racing at a non pro level it does not mean they are not competitive. I know that they would be pissed off that those hundreds of hours training in shite conditions through the winter was for nothing when come the sprint season they effectively get beaten in the first 20 strokes of the race due to the 95kg transwomen in the 4 seat who can pull a sub 6.30 2k erg test. My wife rows, she weighs about 61kg, most of her crew are similar in weight, they collectively average about 7.55 for the same 2k test. I also no for a fact that they would overwhelmingly feel very uncomfortable sharing changing rooms with a biological male.
I'm sure that some passengers were very uncomfortable when Rosa Parks refused to vacate her seat for white passengers when she was told to back in 1955. We've moved on from the civil rights movement and in time we will move on from treating transgender people like second rate citizens.
Way to go conflating racism with basic fairness I'm competitive sports.
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by koroke hangareka »

danny_fitz wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 8:37 am
Ali's Choice wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 8:31 am
danny_fitz wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 8:27 am A lot of this debate is around the pro sports level with talk of testosterone testing and other forms of policing to ensure a 'fair' contest. How is this going to work in the local amateur area? I am the captain of my rowing club, we have various competitive squads from Novice level through to seniors aiming to compete at for national honours or at Henley. They are all amateur and want to win and are training both on and off the water to achieve that. The sport demands a huge amount of time and commitment in order to be competitive. Even at the novice level where you take part in local lower grade regattas I don't think many of the women at my club will be too impressed if they found themselves on the start line competing against a boat with a transwomen in it. Just because they are racing at a non pro level it does not mean they are not competitive. I know that they would be pissed off that those hundreds of hours training in shite conditions through the winter was for nothing when come the sprint season they effectively get beaten in the first 20 strokes of the race due to the 95kg transwomen in the 4 seat who can pull a sub 6.30 2k erg test. My wife rows, she weighs about 61kg, most of her crew are similar in weight, they collectively average about 7.55 for the same 2k test. I also no for a fact that they would overwhelmingly feel very uncomfortable sharing changing rooms with a biological male.
I'm sure that some passengers were very uncomfortable when Rosa Parks refused to vacate her seat for white passengers when she was told to back in 1955. We've moved on from the civil rights movement and in time we will move on from treating transgender people like second rate citizens.
Way to go conflating racism with basic fairness I'm competitive sports.
The conflation was yours. You made a good point about fairness, then you said, " I also no for a fact that they would overwhelmingly feel very uncomfortable sharing changing rooms with a biological male." That's their problem.
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by CM11 »

Ali's Choice wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 7:49 am
Jerome Manning wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 7:34 am Ali, do you see people potentially abusing your logic if they are sentenced to prison? A man all of a sudden deciding he is transgender because he would rather be in a womens prison?

I am not saying that that is ethical or right. Just that someone will try to do it.
That someone would need to convince a judge that they had lived their life as a woman prior to being sentences. Of course there are many examples of the reverse of what you're saying, of fully transitioned women going to jail in men's prisons. I would imagine they'd suffer terribly in that context.
Not with self id. This has already happened in Ireland twice with the relevant people committing sexual assaults towards women as men and then identifying as women before trial. All they have to do is say it and it's done.
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by Ali's Choice »

danny_fitz wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 8:37 am Way to go conflating racism with basic fairness I'm competitive sports.
It's all about inclusion mate. Discriminating against people because of their gender is no different to discriminating against people because of their skin colour.

As an aside, is there a big cohort of transgender rowers in your area who are dominating the women's competitions or are you simply creating a problem that doesn't exist?
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

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Ali's Choice wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 8:31 am
danny_fitz wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 8:27 am A lot of this debate is around the pro sports level with talk of testosterone testing and other forms of policing to ensure a 'fair' contest. How is this going to work in the local amateur area? I am the captain of my rowing club, we have various competitive squads from Novice level through to seniors aiming to compete at for national honours or at Henley. They are all amateur and want to win and are training both on and off the water to achieve that. The sport demands a huge amount of time and commitment in order to be competitive. Even at the novice level where you take part in local lower grade regattas I don't think many of the women at my club will be too impressed if they found themselves on the start line competing against a boat with a transwomen in it. Just because they are racing at a non pro level it does not mean they are not competitive. I know that they would be pissed off that those hundreds of hours training in shite conditions through the winter was for nothing when come the sprint season they effectively get beaten in the first 20 strokes of the race due to the 95kg transwomen in the 4 seat who can pull a sub 6.30 2k erg test. My wife rows, she weighs about 61kg, most of her crew are similar in weight, they collectively average about 7.55 for the same 2k test. I also no for a fact that they would overwhelmingly feel very uncomfortable sharing changing rooms with a biological male.
I'm sure that some passengers were very uncomfortable when Rosa Parks refused to vacate her seat for white passengers when she was told to back in 1955. We've moved on from the civil rights movement and in time we will move on from treating transgender people like second rate citizens.
At least there is no doubt you are not serious
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by Anonymous 1 »

Ali's Choice wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 8:49 am
danny_fitz wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 8:37 am Way to go conflating racism with basic fairness I'm competitive sports.
It's all about inclusion mate. Discriminating against people because of their gender is no different to discriminating against people because of their skin colour.

As an aside, is there a big cohort of transgender rowers in your area who are dominating the women's competitions or are you simply creating a problem that doesn't exist?
So I take it you believe any New Zealander who says they identify as Maori should legally be treated by the NZ government and associated Mauri organisations as such.

BTW

What about the countries where transgender is legally considered to be a third gender do you think they are out of order ?
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by Ali's Choice »

Anonymous 1 wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 9:26 am
Ali's Choice wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 8:49 am
danny_fitz wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 8:37 am Way to go conflating racism with basic fairness I'm competitive sports.
It's all about inclusion mate. Discriminating against people because of their gender is no different to discriminating against people because of their skin colour.

As an aside, is there a big cohort of transgender rowers in your area who are dominating the women's competitions or are you simply creating a problem that doesn't exist?
So I take it you believe any New Zealander who says they identify as Maori should legally be treated by the NZ government and associated Mauri organisations as such.
There are already established and effective processes in place for establishing Whakapapa. Please don't create more hypothetical crises in your head that simply don't exist in the real world. Treating transgender with the respect and dignity they deserve will not result in a flood of pakeha suddenly claiming to be Maori.
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by Mr. Very Popular »

Could this issue be treated similar to when a player wants to play for a country they have no ties with? Live in that country for a qualifying time before you're allowed line out for them.
So, spend 2/3 years living legally as a transitioned person before they qualify to play in the relative category.
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by Tehui »

Please don't treat this debate like it's a race issue or social issue, they're irrelevant comparisons. We're talking about allowing people who were born as men to be competing in sport with people who were born as women. You don't need to be a sports science expert to recognise the massive physiological advantages that a person born as a man has over a person born as a women, i.e, bone structure, muscle strength, body fat percentage, etc.
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by Anonymous 1 »

Ali's Choice wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 9:35 am
Anonymous 1 wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 9:26 am
Ali's Choice wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 8:49 am
danny_fitz wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 8:37 am Way to go conflating racism with basic fairness I'm competitive sports.
It's all about inclusion mate. Discriminating against people because of their gender is no different to discriminating against people because of their skin colour.

As an aside, is there a big cohort of transgender rowers in your area who are dominating the women's competitions or are you simply creating a problem that doesn't exist?
So I take it you believe any New Zealander who says they identify as Maori should legally be treated by the NZ government and associated Mauri organisations as such.
There are already established and effective processes in place for establishing Whakapapa. Please don't create more hypothetical crises in your head that simply don't exist in the real world. Treating transgender with the respect and dignity they deserve will not result in a flood of pakeha suddenly claiming to be Maori.
point being those established processes should now be trumped by anyone just declaring they are a Maori or maybe they are The Walrus
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by Sandstorm »

:P
Mr. Very Popular wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 9:39 am Could this issue be treated similar to when a player wants to play for a country they have no ties with? Live in that country for a qualifying time before you're allowed line out for them.
So, spend 2/3 years living legally as a transitioned person before they qualify to play in the relative category.
Makes no difference, she still has an unfair physical advantage after 3 years.
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by Anonymous 1 »

This reminds me of the silent witness episode where they had a male body that no one could account for after a a train crash. Turned out a women who was a pillar of the community was actually a man and the intensity of the fire burned away all the pretence and revealed what we all deep down know to still be the truth
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by bimboman »

Ali's Choice wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 7:49 am
Jerome Manning wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 7:34 am Ali, do you see people potentially abusing your logic if they are sentenced to prison? A man all of a sudden deciding he is transgender because he would rather be in a womens prison?

I am not saying that that is ethical or right. Just that someone will try to do it.
That someone would need to convince a judge that they had lived their life as a woman prior to being sentences. Of course there are many examples of the reverse of what you're saying, of fully transitioned women going to jail in men's prisons. I would imagine they'd suffer terribly in that context.


So Trans women are only women if a judge says so?


That’s an even weirder argument than Mutton’s about danger,
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by Ali's Choice »

bimboman wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 10:11 am
Ali's Choice wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 7:49 am
Jerome Manning wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 7:34 am Ali, do you see people potentially abusing your logic if they are sentenced to prison? A man all of a sudden deciding he is transgender because he would rather be in a womens prison?

I am not saying that that is ethical or right. Just that someone will try to do it.
That someone would need to convince a judge that they had lived their life as a woman prior to being sentences. Of course there are many examples of the reverse of what you're saying, of fully transitioned women going to jail in men's prisons. I would imagine they'd suffer terribly in that context.


So Trans women are only women if a judge says so?


That’s an even weirder argument than Mutton’s about danger,
Nope, but a judge would decide which prison someone might be sent to.
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by bimboman »

koroke hangareka wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 8:43 am
danny_fitz wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 8:37 am
Ali's Choice wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 8:31 am
danny_fitz wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 8:27 am A lot of this debate is around the pro sports level with talk of testosterone testing and other forms of policing to ensure a 'fair' contest. How is this going to work in the local amateur area? I am the captain of my rowing club, we have various competitive squads from Novice level through to seniors aiming to compete at for national honours or at Henley. They are all amateur and want to win and are training both on and off the water to achieve that. The sport demands a huge amount of time and commitment in order to be competitive. Even at the novice level where you take part in local lower grade regattas I don't think many of the women at my club will be too impressed if they found themselves on the start line competing against a boat with a transwomen in it. Just because they are racing at a non pro level it does not mean they are not competitive. I know that they would be pissed off that those hundreds of hours training in shite conditions through the winter was for nothing when come the sprint season they effectively get beaten in the first 20 strokes of the race due to the 95kg transwomen in the 4 seat who can pull a sub 6.30 2k erg test. My wife rows, she weighs about 61kg, most of her crew are similar in weight, they collectively average about 7.55 for the same 2k test. I also no for a fact that they would overwhelmingly feel very uncomfortable sharing changing rooms with a biological male.
I'm sure that some passengers were very uncomfortable when Rosa Parks refused to vacate her seat for white passengers when she was told to back in 1955. We've moved on from the civil rights movement and in time we will move on from treating transgender people like second rate citizens.
Way to go conflating racism with basic fairness I'm competitive sports.
The conflation was yours. You made a good point about fairness, then you said, " I also no for a fact that they would overwhelmingly feel very uncomfortable sharing changing rooms with a biological male." That's their problem.


Women only spaces aren’t allowed any more.


Here teenage girl who feels a bit awkward watch my junk swing around.
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by bimboman »

Ali's Choice wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 10:14 am
bimboman wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 10:11 am
Ali's Choice wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 7:49 am
Jerome Manning wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 7:34 am Ali, do you see people potentially abusing your logic if they are sentenced to prison? A man all of a sudden deciding he is transgender because he would rather be in a womens prison?

I am not saying that that is ethical or right. Just that someone will try to do it.
That someone would need to convince a judge that they had lived their life as a woman prior to being sentences. Of course there are many examples of the reverse of what you're saying, of fully transitioned women going to jail in men's prisons. I would imagine they'd suffer terribly in that context.


So Trans women are only women if a judge says so?


That’s an even weirder argument than Mutton’s about danger,
Nope, but a judge would decide which prison someone might be sent to.


Sorry, either trans women are women or they’re not, if by YOUR measure they need a judge to decide then they’re not.
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by bimboman »

Ali's Choice wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 8:49 am
danny_fitz wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 8:37 am Way to go conflating racism with basic fairness I'm competitive sports.
It's all about inclusion mate. Discriminating against people because of their gender is no different to discriminating against people because of their skin colour.

As an aside, is there a big cohort of transgender rowers in your area who are dominating the women's competitions or are you simply creating a problem that doesn't exist?

“Trans women are women if there’s only a few of them “.
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Ali's Choice
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by Ali's Choice »

bimboman wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 10:15 am Sorry, either trans women are women or they’re not, if by YOUR measure they need a judge to decide then they’re not.
I agree with you that Transgender women should be sent to a women's prison. But ultimately it's a judge who needs to make that call.
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CM11
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by CM11 »

Ali's Choice wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 10:17 am
bimboman wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 10:15 am Sorry, either trans women are women or they’re not, if by YOUR measure they need a judge to decide then they’re not.
I agree with you that Transgender women should be sent to a women's prison. But ultimately it's a judge who needs to make that call.
How can a judge make that call? They're legally a woman.
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by bimboman »

Ali's Choice wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 10:17 am
bimboman wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 10:15 am Sorry, either trans women are women or they’re not, if by YOUR measure they need a judge to decide then they’re not.
I agree with you that Transgender women should be sent to a women's prison. But ultimately it's a judge who needs to make that call.

Why does a judge need to make a call ?
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Ali's Choice
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by Ali's Choice »

CM11 wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 10:18 am
Ali's Choice wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 10:17 am
bimboman wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 10:15 am Sorry, either trans women are women or they’re not, if by YOUR measure they need a judge to decide then they’re not.
I agree with you that Transgender women should be sent to a women's prison. But ultimately it's a judge who needs to make that call.
How can a judge make that call? They're legally a woman.
Quite.
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by earl the beaver »

booji boy wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 6:48 am Is there any scientific data available on how much weaker these transgender women become after undergoing their sex change operation/hormone therapy?

How much is Hubbard's weightlifting performance affected compared to if she had remained a male and carried on competing in mens weight lifting?

This thread is creating some pretty heated and emotional debate but it seems ridiculous to me that a male athlete that is just an also ran, mediocre athlete in his chosen sport is suddenly an Olympic standard athlete when he/she becomes transgender and begins competing with the women.
Yes there is. Search for Emma Hilton on twitter, she's a researcher on this.
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by bimboman »

CM11 wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 10:18 am
Ali's Choice wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 10:17 am
bimboman wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 10:15 am Sorry, either trans women are women or they’re not, if by YOUR measure they need a judge to decide then they’re not.
I agree with you that Transgender women should be sent to a women's prison. But ultimately it's a judge who needs to make that call.
How can a judge make that call? They're legally a woman.

That’s not actually true in the U.K. currently.
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by bimboman »

Ali's Choice wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 10:19 am
CM11 wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 10:18 am
Ali's Choice wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 10:17 am
bimboman wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 10:15 am Sorry, either trans women are women or they’re not, if by YOUR measure they need a judge to decide then they’re not.
I agree with you that Transgender women should be sent to a women's prison. But ultimately it's a judge who needs to make that call.
How can a judge make that call? They're legally a woman.
Quite.

So you’re now arguing a judge cannot make a call on it. How very odd.


Of course it’s also not true in the U.K. that they’re “legally women” , there’s still different laws around single sex spaces.
Last edited by bimboman on Sun May 09, 2021 10:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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CM11
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by CM11 »

Ali's Choice wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 10:19 am
CM11 wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 10:18 am
Ali's Choice wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 10:17 am
bimboman wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 10:15 am Sorry, either trans women are women or they’re not, if by YOUR measure they need a judge to decide then they’re not.
I agree with you that Transgender women should be sent to a women's prison. But ultimately it's a judge who needs to make that call.
How can a judge make that call? They're legally a woman.
Quite.
So you agree that if a man commits horrific sexual assaults against women but says that they're a woman before sentencing then it's appropriate to send them to a women's prison? And not only that but ask for a more lenient sentence because they're now a woman and women statistically get more lenient sentences?
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by Dozy »

This is the kinda topics that we consume ourselves with these days
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by Lemoentjie »

booji boy wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 6:48 am Is there any scientific data available on how much weaker these transgender women become after undergoing their sex change operation/hormone therapy?

How much is Hubbard's weightlifting performance affected compared to if she had remained a male and carried on competing in mens weight lifting?

This thread is creating some pretty heated and emotional debate but it seems ridiculous to me that a male athlete that is just an also ran, mediocre athlete in his chosen sport is suddenly an Olympic standard athlete when he/she becomes transgender and begins competing with the women.
Hubbard is 42. Almost all elite-level female weightlifters are under/around 30.

That should be an immediate hint.
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