OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

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eldanielfire
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by eldanielfire »

Sawtooth the Beaver wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 5:12 pm 1975 - Personally was too young to care or even be aware of the prevailing arguments.

We were let down in both 1993 and 1997. A more inclusive decision at that time may have prevented the current shit show.

1975 was a very different time from 1993 though. So gentlemen, you can both be right...
I've said that before. Likewise the 2005 and 2009 when changes to the EU. 1) The Eastern bloc joining without controls to the UK and 2) the Lisbon treaty when Labour promised a referendum on a EU on such an act before.
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by mdaclarke »

eldanielfire wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 6:53 pm
Sawtooth the Beaver wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 5:12 pm 1975 - Personally was too young to care or even be aware of the prevailing arguments.

We were let down in both 1993 and 1997. A more inclusive decision at that time may have prevented the current shit show.

1975 was a very different time from 1993 though. So gentlemen, you can both be right...
I've said that before. Likewise the 2005 and 2009 when changes to the EU. 1) The Eastern bloc joining without controls to the UK and 2) the Lisbon treaty when Labour promised a referendum on a EU on such an act before.
I personally believe the decision

1. Not to impose transition controls on the A8 in 2004, and
2. Telling the British that only 10,000 per year will move here

set us on an unstoppable path to leaving the EU.
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by iarmhiman »

eldanielfire wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 6:49 pm
iarmhiman wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 4:41 pm
P in VG wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 4:39 pm The irony of the Brexit boys whining about a 'mandate for a referendum' :lol:
Well SNP and the greens are pro independence and have a majority together so how isn't that a mandate?
Not quite, Sturgeon keeps campaigning that an SNP vote is not about Independence. Then when she gets the votes she claims it's a mandate. She also claimed the last one was a once a generation event by Sturgeon herself. She can't have it both ways. Also the opinion polls support staying in the UK is more desirable than Independence.
I think it's well documented now that polls are not worth a shite since Trump election and Brexit referendum.
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by Leinster in London »

S Club wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 1:15 pm
shereblue wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 11:40 pm
Gospel wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 5:14 pm
iarmhiman wrote:In the making though since 1957 Treaty of Rome. Ever Closer Union was the goal then, so anyone who says the UK joined the EEC in 1973 only as it was a trading bloc is ignorant. The plan since 1957 was ever closer union. It's documented. The UK knew what it was joining as did Ireland and Denmark same year.
It was always downplayed and anyone that brought it up was written off as a swivel eyed loon. The EU project was mis-sold to the UK electorate because our politicians knew the majority wouldn't go along with it.
This is the claim I take issue with.

Leave lost massively in 1975. You've possibly grown up in an era of widespread euroscepticism.

There was a very different national feeling in 75. The UK was the sick man of Europe. Pooling sovereignty was openly claimed to be a desirable facet of an economy in the modern world. It was not electoral suicide to want to be part of an ever closer union. We also had the assurance of a veto.

Anti Europeanism was unhelpfully associated with the relatively extreme right, Inc. the National Front and the anti capitalist left of the Labour Party. Resistance to immigration was not a relevant question for many Brits as no Europeans were in a hurry to move here. We were economic pariah. Belgium, W. Germany, France, Belgium, the Netherlands were not going to send many here. Italy perhaps.

There was no need to downplay "ever closer Union". Joining the EU and becoming more European were generally welcomed. A mood of optimism prevailed.

It was of course opposed. Some leavers like Peter Shore were not at the extremes of politics. Their sort of views came to be far more widely accepted by a core of reasonable "sovereignty" leavers by 2016.

Leave had officially argued that the Common Market would by steps see its members become one nation with the UK a mere province.

Remain was a comfortable 2/3rds vote share winner. It was not a vote loser to acknowledge closer union as part of the Project.

The Iron Curtain came down, qualified majority voting came in, the Euro came in and the membership of the EU changed quantitively and qualitatively very quickly.

There was however no "mis-selling" and that was what I called "bollix".

There were many absurd claims, on both sides, in the knife-edge 2016 referendum. Not so much in 1975. The claim that we thought we were joining a mere trade club claim is a myth.
It's no myth at all. In the pre-internet age, all we had to go on was what the government (sometimes directly, and sometimes via the media) told us.

http://www.harvard-digital.co.uk/euro/pamphlet.htm This was the pamphlet that went to every household in the country. Good luck trying to find anything about ever closer union. Quite the opposite, in fact.
The government distributed three pamphlets.
One from itself, one from the YES campaign, and one from the NO campaign.
For completeness please provide the links to the other two pamphlets. Ta.
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by shereblue »

Leinster in London wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 7:11 am
S Club wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 1:15 pm
shereblue wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 11:40 pm
Gospel wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 5:14 pm
iarmhiman wrote:In the making though since 1957 Treaty of Rome. Ever Closer Union was the goal then, so anyone who says the UK joined the EEC in 1973 only as it was a trading bloc is ignorant. The plan since 1957 was ever closer union. It's documented. The UK knew what it was joining as did Ireland and Denmark same year.
It was always downplayed and anyone that brought it up was written off as a swivel eyed loon. The EU project was mis-sold to the UK electorate because our politicians knew the majority wouldn't go along with it.
This is the claim I take issue with.

Leave lost massively in 1975. You've possibly grown up in an era of widespread euroscepticism.

There was a very different national feeling in 75. The UK was the sick man of Europe. Pooling sovereignty was openly claimed to be a desirable facet of an economy in the modern world. It was not electoral suicide to want to be part of an ever closer union. We also had the assurance of a veto.

Anti Europeanism was unhelpfully associated with the relatively extreme right, Inc. the National Front and the anti capitalist left of the Labour Party. Resistance to immigration was not a relevant question for many Brits as no Europeans were in a hurry to move here. We were economic pariah. Belgium, W. Germany, France, Belgium, the Netherlands were not going to send many here. Italy perhaps.

There was no need to downplay "ever closer Union". Joining the EU and becoming more European were generally welcomed. A mood of optimism prevailed.

It was of course opposed. Some leavers like Peter Shore were not at the extremes of politics. Their sort of views came to be far more widely accepted by a core of reasonable "sovereignty" leavers by 2016.

Leave had officially argued that the Common Market would by steps see its members become one nation with the UK a mere province.

Remain was a comfortable 2/3rds vote share winner. It was not a vote loser to acknowledge closer union as part of the Project.

The Iron Curtain came down, qualified majority voting came in, the Euro came in and the membership of the EU changed quantitively and qualitatively very quickly.

There was however no "mis-selling" and that was what I called "bollix".

There were many absurd claims, on both sides, in the knife-edge 2016 referendum. Not so much in 1975. The claim that we thought we were joining a mere trade club claim is a myth.
It's no myth at all. In the pre-internet age, all we had to go on was what the government (sometimes directly, and sometimes via the media) told us.

http://www.harvard-digital.co.uk/euro/pamphlet.htm This was the pamphlet that went to every household in the country. Good luck trying to find anything about ever closer union. Quite the opposite, in fact.
The government distributed three pamphlets.
One from itself, one from the YES campaign, and one from the NO campaign.
For completeness please provide the links to the other two pamphlets. Ta.
Here's a link to all three.

https://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk ... ments.html
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by Anonymous 1 »

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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by eldanielfire »

iarmhiman wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 8:42 pm
eldanielfire wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 6:49 pm
iarmhiman wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 4:41 pm
P in VG wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 4:39 pm The irony of the Brexit boys whining about a 'mandate for a referendum' :lol:
Well SNP and the greens are pro independence and have a majority together so how isn't that a mandate?
Not quite, Sturgeon keeps campaigning that an SNP vote is not about Independence. Then when she gets the votes she claims it's a mandate. She also claimed the last one was a once a generation event by Sturgeon herself. She can't have it both ways. Also the opinion polls support staying in the UK is more desirable than Independence.
I think it's well documented now that polls are not worth a shite since Trump election and Brexit referendum.
Not quite. The polls where not hugely accurate but they were an indicator of trends. Trumps till lost the popular vote and if you didn't buy into the media and political chat Brexit was certainly a likely possibility. Certain polls show a frequently trend. If you read the right ones. When YouGov do their more through polls rather than their snap ones they are nearly always correct.

The issue is of course is the media will grasp at the polls they want, or read them with the bias they want, not the polls that are correct when read in the factual right context.
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by piquant »

S Club wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 1:15 pm
It's no myth at all. In the pre-internet age, all we had to go on was what the government (sometimes directly, and sometimes via the media) told us.


I'm going to go out on a limb and say you don't actually know much of anything about a time before the internet.

The lies, the propaganda, the batshit insane all remains. Also there isn't a simple distinction of things the government says being bad and the truth lies elsewhere. Even the current UK government has managed more than the occasional truthful comment during the pandemic.
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by S Club »

piquant wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 10:39 am
S Club wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 1:15 pm
It's no myth at all. In the pre-internet age, all we had to go on was what the government (sometimes directly, and sometimes via the media) told us.


I'm going to go out on a limb and say you don't actually know much of anything about a time before the internet.

The lies, the propaganda, the batshit insane all remains. Also there isn't a simple distinction of things the government says being bad and the truth lies elsewhere. Even the current UK government has managed more than the occasional truthful comment during the pandemic.
Eh?
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by Mick Mannock »

S Club wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 12:26 pm
piquant wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 10:39 am
S Club wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 1:15 pm
It's no myth at all. In the pre-internet age, all we had to go on was what the government (sometimes directly, and sometimes via the media) told us.


I'm going to go out on a limb and say you don't actually know much of anything about a time before the internet.

The lies, the propaganda, the batshit insane all remains. Also there isn't a simple distinction of things the government says being bad and the truth lies elsewhere. Even the current UK government has managed more than the occasional truthful comment during the pandemic.
Eh?
Don't bother. Piquant is like Shereblue with fewer pointless words
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by S Club »

shereblue wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 7:39 am
The government distributed three pamphlets.
One from itself, one from the YES campaign, and one from the NO campaign.
For completeness please provide the links to the other two pamphlets. Ta.
Here's a link to all three.

https://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk ... ments.html
[/quote]

Thanks for the link. To be honest, I'd forgotten about the yes and no leaflets. But it's hardly a "gotcha". My point stands Pre-internet, there was not the widespread understanding that the EU was working towards "ever closer union". And there's certainly nothing in the leaflets (which 68% of the voting public didn't read anyway, according to the final Harris poll) about it.
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by shereblue »

S Club wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 12:32 pm
shereblue wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 7:39 am
The government distributed three pamphlets.
One from itself, one from the YES campaign, and one from the NO campaign.
For completeness please provide the links to the other two pamphlets. Ta.
Here's a link to all three.

https://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk ... ments.html
Thanks for the link. To be honest, I'd forgotten about the yes and no leaflets. But it's hardly a "gotcha". My point stands Pre-internet, there was not the widespread understanding that the EU was working towards "ever closer union". And there's certainly nothing in the leaflets (which 68% of the voting public didn't read anyway, according to the final Harris poll) about it.
[/quote]


My wordy comments were looking to give historical context to the picture in 1975. And to rebut absolutist 2016 winner's history such as "mis-selling" and "trade org. only". There are no gotchas. History, unlike politics, is rarely quite so simple.

The EC Six had been enviously successful economically with a framework that had also helped to turn round post WW2 enmities, notably between Germany and France. It was niche and surrounded by dictatorships of different persuasions, our wonderful Scandis aside.

The nature and extent of the ECs subsequent geographical and competency expansion could not have been envisaged at that time. 1975 did see step by step merger into a Single Nation warnings weighed against acceptance of development and pooling of sovereignty. The No/Leave's warnings were too theoretical to capture the public imagination.

That's why the "mis-selling" line needed robust rebuttal. Who really knows where we will be with Brexit in 20 years time, where the world will be?
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by Gospel »

shereblue wrote:That's why the "mis-selling" line needed robust rebuttal. Who really knows where we will be with Brexit in 20 years time, where the world will be?
Cobblers. It was absolutely mis-sold given the subsequent importance given to ever closer union and this tawdry claim that this is what people voted for and if they didn't realise it at the time shame on them. So many older folk voted to leave in 2016 because they were very much of the opinion they were taking back their vote to remain in 1975.
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by shereblue »

Gospel wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 2:26 pm
shereblue wrote:That's why the "mis-selling" line needed robust rebuttal. Who really knows where we will be with Brexit in 20 years time, where the world will be?
Cobblers. It was absolutely mis-sold given the subsequent importance given to ever closer union and this tawdry claim that this is what people voted for and if they didn't realise it at the time shame on them. So many older folk voted to leave in 2016 because they were very much of the opinion they were taking back their vote to remain in 1975.
Anger and reason aren't easy companions.
Last edited by shereblue on Wed May 12, 2021 2:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by La soule »

Gospel wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 2:26 pm
shereblue wrote:That's why the "mis-selling" line needed robust rebuttal. Who really knows where we will be with Brexit in 20 years time, where the world will be?
Cobblers. It was absolutely mis-sold given the subsequent importance given to ever closer union and this tawdry claim that this is what people voted for and if they didn't realise it at the time shame on them. So many older folk voted to leave in 2016 because they were very much of the opinion they were taking back their vote to remain in 1975.
Did you actually read the "NO" Pamphlet in the link above?
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by shereblue »

La soule wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 2:54 pm
Gospel wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 2:26 pm
shereblue wrote:That's why the "mis-selling" line needed robust rebuttal. Who really knows where we will be with Brexit in 20 years time, where the world will be?
Cobblers. It was absolutely mis-sold given the subsequent importance given to ever closer union and this tawdry claim that this is what people voted for and if they didn't realise it at the time shame on them. So many older folk voted to leave in 2016 because they were very much of the opinion they were taking back their vote to remain in 1975.
Did you actually read the "NO" Pamphlet in the link above?
He doesn't need to
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by La soule »

shereblue wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 2:54 pm
La soule wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 2:54 pm
Gospel wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 2:26 pm
shereblue wrote:That's why the "mis-selling" line needed robust rebuttal. Who really knows where we will be with Brexit in 20 years time, where the world will be?
Cobblers. It was absolutely mis-sold given the subsequent importance given to ever closer union and this tawdry claim that this is what people voted for and if they didn't realise it at the time shame on them. So many older folk voted to leave in 2016 because they were very much of the opinion they were taking back their vote to remain in 1975.
Did you actually read the "NO" Pamphlet in the link above?
He doesn't need to
I see.

Why am I not surprised.....
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by clementinfrance »

Indeed for gaslighters like Gospel the following:
The real aim of the (common) market is, of course, to become one single country in which Britain would be reduced to a mere province....
does in no way allude to "ever closer union"...

:lol: :lol: :lol:


Funny to read that even the "No" pamphlet says the alternative would be to join EFTA...
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by bimboman »

That's why the "mis-selling" line needed robust rebuttal. Who really knows where we will be with Brexit in 20 years time, where the world will be?

But you’ve spent years now telling us it would only bring Ruin to the U.K.
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by Sawtooth the Beaver »

bimboman wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 5:01 pm
That's why the "mis-selling" line needed robust rebuttal. Who really knows where we will be with Brexit in 20 years time, where the world will be?

But you’ve spent years now telling us it would only bring Ruin to the U.K.
You mean the short term 1-5 year predictions?
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by bimboman »

Sawtooth the Beaver wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 5:36 pm
bimboman wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 5:01 pm
That's why the "mis-selling" line needed robust rebuttal. Who really knows where we will be with Brexit in 20 years time, where the world will be?

But you’ve spent years now telling us it would only bring Ruin to the U.K.
You mean the short term 1-5 year predictions?


Nope,
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by Sawtooth the Beaver »

bimboman wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 6:06 pm
Sawtooth the Beaver wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 5:36 pm
bimboman wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 5:01 pm
That's why the "mis-selling" line needed robust rebuttal. Who really knows where we will be with Brexit in 20 years time, where the world will be?

But you’ve spent years now telling us it would only bring Ruin to the U.K.
You mean the short term 1-5 year predictions?


Nope,
Do tell, or is this another unsubstantiated gut feeling?
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by bimboman »

Sawtooth the Beaver wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 6:15 pm
bimboman wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 6:06 pm
Sawtooth the Beaver wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 5:36 pm
bimboman wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 5:01 pm
That's why the "mis-selling" line needed robust rebuttal. Who really knows where we will be with Brexit in 20 years time, where the world will be?

But you’ve spent years now telling us it would only bring Ruin to the U.K.
You mean the short term 1-5 year predictions?


Nope,
Do tell, or is this another unsubstantiated gut feeling?


I couldn’t have been more clear about what I meant. Sherblue posted regularly that brexit would bring collapse to the U.K. it now appears “no one” could actually predict that.
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by Gospel »

La soule wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 2:54 pm
Gospel wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 2:26 pm
shereblue wrote:That's why the "mis-selling" line needed robust rebuttal. Who really knows where we will be with Brexit in 20 years time, where the world will be?
Cobblers. It was absolutely mis-sold given the subsequent importance given to ever closer union and this tawdry claim that this is what people voted for and if they didn't realise it at the time shame on them. So many older folk voted to leave in 2016 because they were very much of the opinion they were taking back their vote to remain in 1975.
Did you actually read the "NO" Pamphlet in the link above?
The claims in the 'NO" pamphlet were the work of the 'swivel-eyed loons' and not HM Government.
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by shereblue »

bimboman wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 5:01 pm
That's why the "mis-selling" line needed robust rebuttal. Who really knows where we will be with Brexit kin 20 years time, where the world will be?

But you’ve spent years now telling us it would only bring Ruin to the U.K.
And you've only stopped this since Tory Brexit policy changed.

I have less idea than many how Brexit will affect the UK economically. Pre-Covid, majority expert opinion seemed to be that it would lead to shortfalls in GDP growth.

My approach to the 1975 Referendum question has been purely academic. S Club apart, my take just meets with robust political doubling down without any objective counter evidence.

Bantz is great. Minds closed to nuance - not so much.
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by Sawtooth the Beaver »

bimboman wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 6:28 pm
Sawtooth the Beaver wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 6:15 pm
bimboman wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 6:06 pm
Sawtooth the Beaver wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 5:36 pm
bimboman wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 5:01 pm


But you’ve spent years now telling us it would only bring Ruin to the U.K.
You mean the short term 1-5 year predictions?


Nope,
Do tell, or is this another unsubstantiated gut feeling?


I couldn’t have been more clear about what I meant. Sherblue posted regularly that brexit would bring collapse to the U.K. it now appears “no one” could actually predict that.
Read what you have written again, Either you are missing a very obvious point, or you are being disingenuous.
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by La soule »

Gospel wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 6:32 pm
La soule wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 2:54 pm
Gospel wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 2:26 pm
shereblue wrote:That's why the "mis-selling" line needed robust rebuttal. Who really knows where we will be with Brexit in 20 years time, where the world will be?
Cobblers. It was absolutely mis-sold given the subsequent importance given to ever closer union and this tawdry claim that this is what people voted for and if they didn't realise it at the time shame on them. So many older folk voted to leave in 2016 because they were very much of the opinion they were taking back their vote to remain in 1975.
Did you actually read the "NO" Pamphlet in the link above?
The claims in the 'NO" pamphlet were the work of the 'swivel-eyed loons' and not HM Government.
You can just say you were wrong and talking bollocks.
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by bimboman »

Sawtooth the Beaver wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 7:21 pm
bimboman wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 6:28 pm
Sawtooth the Beaver wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 6:15 pm
bimboman wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 6:06 pm
Sawtooth the Beaver wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 5:36 pm

You mean the short term 1-5 year predictions?


Nope,
Do tell, or is this another unsubstantiated gut feeling?


I couldn’t have been more clear about what I meant. Sherblue posted regularly that brexit would bring collapse to the U.K. it now appears “no one” could actually predict that.
Read what you have written again, Either you are missing a very obvious point, or you are being disingenuous.


Enjoy your killer point, I’ve not one clue what the f uck you’re on about.
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Post by haunch »

Image

looks like a quick recovery :thumbup:
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by Gospel »

La soule wrote:You can just say you were wrong and talking bollocks.
I am not talking bollocks. My point was how membership was sold by the Government at the time and how successive Governments acted with each new Treaty. Even during the 2016 referendum Nick Clegg described the notion of an EU Army as a "dangerous fantasy". Euroscpetism has long been claimed to be the preserve of the swivel eyed loons.
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by Sawtooth the Beaver »

Code: Select all

[quote][/quote]
bimboman wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 8:00 pm
Sawtooth the Beaver wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 7:21 pm
bimboman wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 6:28 pm
Sawtooth the Beaver wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 6:15 pm
bimboman wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 6:06 pm



Nope,
Do tell, or is this another unsubstantiated gut feeling?


I couldn’t have been more clear about what I meant. Sherblue posted regularly that brexit would bring collapse to the U.K. it now appears “no one” could actually predict that.
Read what you have written again, Either you are missing a very obvious point, or you are being disingenuous.


Enjoy your killer point, I’ve not one clue what the f uck you’re on about.
There is not a single remainer Shere blue included that has stated categorically with 100% certainty that the UK will be worse off in 20 years time.

Find one example. Your clever attack is not quite so. Simple enough for you?
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by Sawtooth the Beaver »

Sawtooth the Beaver wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 12:37 am

Code: Select all

[quote][/quote]
bimboman wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 8:00 pm
Sawtooth the Beaver wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 7:21 pm
bimboman wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 6:28 pm
Sawtooth the Beaver wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 6:15 pm

Do tell, or is this another unsubstantiated gut feeling?


I couldn’t have been more clear about what I meant. Sherblue posted regularly that brexit would bring collapse to the U.K. it now appears “no one” could actually predict that.
Read what you have written again, Either you are missing a very obvious point, or you are being disingenuous.


Enjoy your killer point, I’ve not one clue what the f uck you’re on about.
There is not a single remainer Shere blue included that has stated categorically with 100% certainty that the UK will be worse off from this point in 20 years time.

Find one example. Your clever attack is not quite so. Simple enough for you?
La soule
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by La soule »

Gospel wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 8:54 pm
La soule wrote:You can just say you were wrong and talking bollocks.
I am not talking bollocks. My point was how membership was sold by the Government at the time and how successive Governments acted with each new Treaty. Even during the 2016 referendum Nick Clegg described the notion of an EU Army as a "dangerous fantasy". Euroscpetism has long been claimed to be the preserve of the swivel eyed loons.
Grasping at straws.

The point is there was information available to the population and that further integration was always part of the project.

It did not just happen out of thin air later on.
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danny_fitz
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by danny_fitz »

La soule wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 8:45 am
Gospel wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 8:54 pm
La soule wrote:You can just say you were wrong and talking bollocks.
I am not talking bollocks. My point was how membership was sold by the Government at the time and how successive Governments acted with each new Treaty. Even during the 2016 referendum Nick Clegg described the notion of an EU Army as a "dangerous fantasy". Euroscpetism has long been claimed to be the preserve of the swivel eyed loons.
Grasping at straws.

The point is there was information available to the population and that further integration was always part of the project.

It did not just happen out of thin air later on.
Do you not think that getting an occasional mandate from said population on whether they wanted further integration would have been a better policy instead of hiding behind the somewhat nebulas mantra of 'ever closer union' that never really stated what the eventual end goal would be (federal Europe, superstrate, full economic and political harmonisation, common defence force? etc). Some states held referendums, many did not despite promises to the contrary. It's an incredibly weak argument to suggest that a vote taken 40+ years ago to join the EEC was enough to provide an ongoing consensus for all subsequent integration.
La soule
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by La soule »

danny_fitz wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 9:02 am
La soule wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 8:45 am
Gospel wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 8:54 pm
La soule wrote:You can just say you were wrong and talking bollocks.
I am not talking bollocks. My point was how membership was sold by the Government at the time and how successive Governments acted with each new Treaty. Even during the 2016 referendum Nick Clegg described the notion of an EU Army as a "dangerous fantasy". Euroscpetism has long been claimed to be the preserve of the swivel eyed loons.
Grasping at straws.

The point is there was information available to the population and that further integration was always part of the project.

It did not just happen out of thin air later on.
Do you not think that getting an occasional mandate from said population on whether they wanted further integration would have been a better policy instead of hiding behind the somewhat nebulas mantra of 'ever closer union' that never really stated what the eventual end goal would be (federal Europe, superstrate, full economic and political harmonisation, common defence force? etc). Some states held referendums, many did not despite promises to the contrary. It's an incredibly weak argument to suggest that a vote taken 40+ years ago to join the EEC was enough to provide an ongoing consensus for all subsequent integration.
The point being that you guys appear to be arguing now that you only joined an economic project not knowing that the plan was further integration all along.

That's just wrong. You did not like it, you left. Good.
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danny_fitz
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by danny_fitz »

La soule wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 9:48 am
danny_fitz wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 9:02 am
La soule wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 8:45 am
Gospel wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 8:54 pm
La soule wrote:You can just say you were wrong and talking bollocks.
I am not talking bollocks. My point was how membership was sold by the Government at the time and how successive Governments acted with each new Treaty. Even during the 2016 referendum Nick Clegg described the notion of an EU Army as a "dangerous fantasy". Euroscpetism has long been claimed to be the preserve of the swivel eyed loons.
Grasping at straws.

The point is there was information available to the population and that further integration was always part of the project.

It did not just happen out of thin air later on.
Do you not think that getting an occasional mandate from said population on whether they wanted further integration would have been a better policy instead of hiding behind the somewhat nebulas mantra of 'ever closer union' that never really stated what the eventual end goal would be (federal Europe, superstrate, full economic and political harmonisation, common defence force? etc). Some states held referendums, many did not despite promises to the contrary. It's an incredibly weak argument to suggest that a vote taken 40+ years ago to join the EEC was enough to provide an ongoing consensus for all subsequent integration.
The point being that you guys appear to be arguing now that you only joined an economic project not knowing that the plan was further integration all along.

That's just wrong. You did not like it, you left. Good.
Not really, however I am suggesting that perhaps seeking mandates from the populations of all members states for each major treaty (Maastricht, Lisbon) would probably have served the EU better in the long run rather then just hiding behind 'ever closer union' mission creep and 'you knew all along there would be further integration' despite there be no clear definition as to what precisely that would entail.

For what it is worth, I voted remain, but that does not make me some chest thumping champion of all things EU.
La soule
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by La soule »

danny_fitz wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 10:32 am
La soule wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 9:48 am
danny_fitz wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 9:02 am
La soule wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 8:45 am
Gospel wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 8:54 pm
I am not talking bollocks. My point was how membership was sold by the Government at the time and how successive Governments acted with each new Treaty. Even during the 2016 referendum Nick Clegg described the notion of an EU Army as a "dangerous fantasy". Euroscpetism has long been claimed to be the preserve of the swivel eyed loons.
Grasping at straws.

The point is there was information available to the population and that further integration was always part of the project.

It did not just happen out of thin air later on.
Do you not think that getting an occasional mandate from said population on whether they wanted further integration would have been a better policy instead of hiding behind the somewhat nebulas mantra of 'ever closer union' that never really stated what the eventual end goal would be (federal Europe, superstrate, full economic and political harmonisation, common defence force? etc). Some states held referendums, many did not despite promises to the contrary. It's an incredibly weak argument to suggest that a vote taken 40+ years ago to join the EEC was enough to provide an ongoing consensus for all subsequent integration.
The point being that you guys appear to be arguing now that you only joined an economic project not knowing that the plan was further integration all along.

That's just wrong. You did not like it, you left. Good.
Not really, however I am suggesting that perhaps seeking mandates from the populations of all members states for each major treaty (Maastricht, Lisbon) would probably have served the EU better in the long run rather then just hiding behind 'ever closer union' mission creep and 'you knew all along there would be further integration' despite there be no clear definition as to what precisely that would entail.

For what it is worth, I voted remain, but that does not make me some chest thumping champion of all things EU.
Sure, EU is not perfect far from it.

The further integration was never hidden from the agenda.

If I may though, nobody forced anybody to join.
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Leinster in London
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by Leinster in London »

S Club wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 12:32 pm
shereblue wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 7:39 am
The government distributed three pamphlets.
One from itself, one from the YES campaign, and one from the NO campaign.
For completeness please provide the links to the other two pamphlets. Ta.
Here's a link to all three.

https://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk ... ments.html
Thanks for the link. To be honest, I'd forgotten about the yes and no leaflets. But it's hardly a "gotcha". My point stands Pre-internet, there was not the widespread understanding that the EU was working towards "ever closer union". And there's certainly nothing in the leaflets (which 68% of the voting public didn't read anyway, according to the final Harris poll) about it.
[/quote]

Your deflection is pathetic.
piquant
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by piquant »

Sawtooth the Beaver wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 12:37 am

Code: Select all

[quote][/quote]
bimboman wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 8:00 pm
Sawtooth the Beaver wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 7:21 pm
bimboman wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 6:28 pm
Sawtooth the Beaver wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 6:15 pm

Do tell, or is this another unsubstantiated gut feeling?


I couldn’t have been more clear about what I meant. Sherblue posted regularly that brexit would bring collapse to the U.K. it now appears “no one” could actually predict that.
Read what you have written again, Either you are missing a very obvious point, or you are being disingenuous.


Enjoy your killer point, I’ve not one clue what the f uck you’re on about.
There is not a single remainer Shere blue included that has stated categorically with 100% certainty that the UK will be worse off in 20 years time.

Find one example. Your clever attack is not quite so. Simple enough for you?

Less well off, or less well of than we would have been had we not left the EU?

If the latter then given a short timeframe such as 20 years we'd almost certainly have been better off not leaving the EU, the sort of changes we'd be looking for such that wouldn't happen would be stark indeed. Over 50 years with possible gains from compliance costs being more UK specific we'll have overcome the loss of access, possibly still somewhat unlikely if the EU exists much as it does today, but at least possible.

There is if course we're yet to get the work done on services because... well who knows why, it's just cretinous. And so we could still get an amazing deal out of the EU having dealt ourselves the weakest hand we could and established a reputation for lying and being unreliable in the process, so it seems unlikely we'd get an amazing deal but until it doesn't happen it could
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Gospel
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Re: OFFICIAL Brexit Thread

Post by Gospel »

La soule wrote:If I may though, nobody forced anybody to join.
You're being unnecessarily defensive. The point being reiterated is how successive BRITISH GOVERNMENTS have acted to shove through EU treaty legislation without public consultation and maybe had they actually brought the rest of us with them the 2016 plebiscite would not have gone the way it did.
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