Deliberate knock on - law(s)?

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kiwigreg369
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Deliberate knock on - law(s)?

Post by kiwigreg369 »

Chase T was sent off last night vs Reds - and I suspect my understanding of the law(s) is outdated.

In my mind it was still the knock up vs down - as indicator of intent. Chase hit it up but could not regather - and the default seemed to be penalty (and as a penalty it was penalty try and yellow card).

What is the law(s) here and/or directive.

I read this : Law 11: Knock-on or throw forward
It is not an intentional knock-on if, in the act of trying to catch the ball, the player knocks on provided that there was a reasonable expectation that the player could gain possession.

Did Berry decide that Chase could not reasonably expect to gain?

If so I found the second half (mid 2nd half) incident where Trask jumped for high ball and he was tipped and landed dangerously. The reds player - by not jumping - I don’t think had a reasonable expectation to win the ball. I don’t actually think Reds player did anything wrong - but if the decision is based on reasonable expectations how did those outcomes occur?

What am I missing / behind on?
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Re: Deliberate knock on - law(s)?

Post by Ali's Choice »

The deliberate knock on law is one of the worst in the game. You can deliberately strike at the ball if a player is holding the ball. You can deliberately strike at a kick. But as soon as a ball has been passed suddenly the exact same action will result in a card. Why? What great crime is this law trying to prevent?
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Re: Deliberate knock on - law(s)?

Post by towny »

Ali's Choice wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 12:44 am The deliberate knock on law is one of the worst in the game. You can deliberately strike at the ball if a player is holding the ball. You can deliberately strike at a kick. But as soon as a ball has been passed suddenly the exact same action will result in a card. Why? What great crime is this law trying to prevent?
+1

I remember Lomu getting a red card for this (already had a yellow). Is it worse than a cynical ruck penalty? I don’t see the point of it.
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Re: Deliberate knock on - law(s)?

Post by shanky »

Ali's Choice wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 12:44 am The deliberate knock on law is one of the worst in the game. You can deliberately strike at the ball if a player is holding the ball. You can deliberately strike at a kick. But as soon as a ball has been passed suddenly the exact same action will result in a card. Why? What great crime is this law trying to prevent?
If the only consequence was a scrum, wingers would be cynically slapping down last-passes to prevent certain tries.
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Re: Deliberate knock on - law(s)?

Post by Ali's Choice »

shanky wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 1:27 am
Ali's Choice wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 12:44 am The deliberate knock on law is one of the worst in the game. You can deliberately strike at the ball if a player is holding the ball. You can deliberately strike at a kick. But as soon as a ball has been passed suddenly the exact same action will result in a card. Why? What great crime is this law trying to prevent?
If the only consequence was a scrum, wingers would be cynically slapping down last-passes to prevent certain tries.
What's wrong with that? Slapping down at the ball is allowed in every other facet of play, apart from directly after a ball has been passed. Ever time a player runs with the ball defenders try and slap it out of his possession. Similarly kicks can be slapped down.

It's allowed in Rugby League and you don't see wingers casually slapping away potential tries whenever they feel like it.
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Re: Deliberate knock on - law(s)?

Post by shanky »

Fair point
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Re: Deliberate knock on - law(s)?

Post by Farva »

shanky wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 1:43 am Fair point
I tend to think it’s driven by it being negative play. The rip out or the charge down are ways to win possession for your team.
Slapping a ball forward when going for the intercept is negative play. You aren’t going to win possession and it will result in a scrum. It’s negative play.
I don’t mind it as a law.
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Re: Deliberate knock on - law(s)?

Post by Thomas »

I saw two examples on the weekend.

In the Canes - Force match in the last passage of play a Hurricanes player slapped a ball down that was being offloaded by a Force player. He knocked it backwards though and the Canes got it and scored. That's fine.

Last night with a 2 on 1 overlap and certain try to be scored a Chiefs player attempted to intercept the ball. In doing so he knocked the ball on and the Reds were denied a certain try. Result was a penalty try and a yellow card. It's high risk - high reward. In this case he had a crack at it and stuffed up.

Here's Gus Gardner explaining it very succinctly.

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=1688792341156256
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Re: Deliberate knock on - law(s)?

Post by mr bungle »

It was even worse when players making a genuine attempt to pop the ball up and regather were penalised. Happened all the time before TMO’s.
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Re: Deliberate knock on - law(s)?

Post by massive_field_goal »

joke of a rule

is not time wasting or kicking the ball out backwards at the end of a game cynical play?
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Re: Deliberate knock on - law(s)?

Post by kiap »

massive_field_goal wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 3:10 am is not time wasting or kicking the ball out backwards at the end of a game cynical play?
Time wasting, yes.

Kicking the ball out backwards, no.
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Re: Deliberate knock on - law(s)?

Post by guy smiley »

Should have been a penalty and card for the Trask incident.
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Re: Deliberate knock on - law(s)?

Post by kiwigreg369 »

Thanks Thomas- in line with Gardner.

I just rewatched - the pace of the pass meant always difficult / unlikely for Chase to get. Interesting that Berry didn’t describe it that way as in his mind it was more about PT or not (which it had to be in that situation).
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Re: Deliberate knock on - law(s)?

Post by guy smiley »

kiwigreg369 wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 3:37 am Thanks Thomas- in line with Gardner.

I just rewatched - the pace of the pass meant always difficult / unlikely for Chase to get. Interesting that Berry didn’t describe it that way as in his mind it was more about PT or not (which it had to be in that situation).
He never considered 'deliberate' or not... it was a simple matter of PT or not. Considering his hardline stance on interpretation regarding the intercept then, his willingness to reinterpret the foul play taking a player in the air out as just an intention to take the ball is interesting.
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Re: Deliberate knock on - law(s)?

Post by kiap »

Thomas wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 2:08 am Here's Gus Gardner explaining it very succinctly.

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=1688792341156256
Gus clarifies it. :thumbup:
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Re: Deliberate knock on - law(s)?

Post by Clogs »

Quite possibly the dumbest law in the history of the game. A defending player rushes up, attempts to catch the ball, knocks on and is sent off vs the defending player rushes up, just misses the ball, but the attacking player attempts to catch the ball but knocks on and it is a scrum to the defending team.

The crime does not match the sentence.
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Re: Deliberate knock on - law(s)?

Post by MungoMan »

Ali's Choice wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 1:31 am
shanky wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 1:27 am
Ali's Choice wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 12:44 am The deliberate knock on law is one of the worst in the game. You can deliberately strike at the ball if a player is holding the ball. You can deliberately strike at a kick. But as soon as a ball has been passed suddenly the exact same action will result in a card. Why? What great crime is this law trying to prevent?
If the only consequence was a scrum, wingers would be cynically slapping down last-passes to prevent certain tries.
What's wrong with that? Slapping down at the ball is allowed in every other facet of play, apart from directly after a ball has been passed. Ever time a player runs with the ball defenders try and slap it out of his possession. Similarly kicks can be slapped down.

It's allowed in Rugby League and you don't see wingers casually slapping away potential tries whenever they feel like it.
League is even more odd in that the RL LOTG* direct referees to penalise (‘shall be penalised’) players who deliberately knock on or pass forward. Yet this happens, to the nearest approximation, never.


*Section 10 - Knock on and forward pass, Law 1.
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Re: Deliberate knock on - law(s)?

Post by Pakia Pakia »

kiwigreg369 wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 12:41 am Chase T was sent off last night vs Reds - and I suspect my understanding of the law(s) is outdated.

In my mind it was still the knock up vs down - as indicator of intent. Chase hit it up but could not regather - and the default seemed to be penalty (and as a penalty it was penalty try and yellow card).

What is the law(s) here and/or directive.

I read this : Law 11: Knock-on or throw forward
It is not an intentional knock-on if, in the act of trying to catch the ball, the player knocks on provided that there was a reasonable expectation that the player could gain possession.

Did Berry decide that Chase could not reasonably expect to gain?

If so I found the second half (mid 2nd half) incident where Trask jumped for high ball and he was tipped and landed dangerously. The reds player - by not jumping - I don’t think had a reasonable expectation to win the ball. I don’t actually think Reds player did anything wrong - but if the decision is based on reasonable expectations how did those outcomes occur?

What am I missing / behind on?
Chase Tiatia had no chance of gaining possession. It's pretty cut and dried. The law is clear and usually its fairly obvious if a player has a reasonable expectation of gaining possession.
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Re: Deliberate knock on - law(s)?

Post by Ali's Choice »

Clogs wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 5:05 am Quite possibly the dumbest law in the history of the game. A defending player rushes up, attempts to catch the ball, knocks on and is sent off vs the defending player rushes up, just misses the ball, but the attacking player attempts to catch the ball but knocks on and it is a scrum to the defending team.

The crime does not match the sentence.
Amen, brother!
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Re: Deliberate knock on - law(s)?

Post by towny »

Thomas wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 2:08 am I saw two examples on the weekend.

In the Canes - Force match in the last passage of play a Hurricanes player slapped a ball down that was being offloaded by a Force player. He knocked it backwards though and the Canes got it and scored. That's fine.

Last night with a 2 on 1 overlap and certain try to be scored a Chiefs player attempted to intercept the ball. In doing so he knocked the ball on and the Reds were denied a certain try. Result was a penalty try and a yellow card. It's high risk - high reward. In this case he had a crack at it and stuffed up.

Here's Gus Gardner explaining it very succinctly.

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=1688792341156256
I’m not sure I agree that it is succinct.
Gardner’s point: A player can slap at a ball, but if it bounces off his hands up and allows him a realistic chance to regather it, it’s not a penalty.

This means the difference between a penalty (and possibly YC) and a scrum, may not actually be about the action itself or the player’s intent, but about the direction the ball bounces off the hand.

Decisions are already subjective interpretations - now we have included luck as an ingredient.

And what’s the benefit? As AC said, we don’t see loads of slap downs in the NRL (I’m taking his word for it) and I can’t see how it would be a big thing in rugby erased this law.
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Re: Deliberate knock on - law(s)?

Post by wamberal »

guy smiley wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 3:16 am Should have been a penalty and card for the Trask incident.
Rubbish. Get your head out of your orifice.
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Re: Deliberate knock on - law(s)?

Post by shanky »

MungoMan wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 8:59 am
Ali's Choice wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 1:31 am
shanky wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 1:27 am
Ali's Choice wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 12:44 am The deliberate knock on law is one of the worst in the game. You can deliberately strike at the ball if a player is holding the ball. You can deliberately strike at a kick. But as soon as a ball has been passed suddenly the exact same action will result in a card. Why? What great crime is this law trying to prevent?
If the only consequence was a scrum, wingers would be cynically slapping down last-passes to prevent certain tries.
What's wrong with that? Slapping down at the ball is allowed in every other facet of play, apart from directly after a ball has been passed. Ever time a player runs with the ball defenders try and slap it out of his possession. Similarly kicks can be slapped down.

It's allowed in Rugby League and you don't see wingers casually slapping away potential tries whenever they feel like it.
League is even more odd in that the RL LOTG* direct referees to penalise (‘shall be penalised’) players who deliberately knock on or pass forward. Yet this happens, to the nearest approximation, never.


*Section 10 - Knock on and forward pass, Law 1.
Rules, isn’t it?

They don’t bother with them rah rah ‘laws’.
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Re: Deliberate knock on - law(s)?

Post by kiap »

towny wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 10:22 amAs AC said, we don’t see loads of slap downs in the NRL (I’m taking his word for it)
I don't watch the game much anymore but does RL have a lot more separation than RU of its players? Obviously fewer guys on the pitch but also, on average, kept further back on defence in every play.

The likehood is that slap downs are fewer for these kinds of reasons rather than due to greater or lesser sanction. i.e. If slap downs are effective in last ditch defence then teams will do them whenever they can.

Problem for RU is it's a negative spectacle in an already low ball-in-play game. For union, potentially another another 3-5 minute clock-eating scrum.

Penalising it has an upside as well as downside.
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Re: Deliberate knock on - law(s)?

Post by towny »

kiap wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 10:57 am
towny wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 10:22 amAs AC said, we don’t see loads of slap downs in the NRL (I’m taking his word for it)
I don't watch the game much anymore but does RL have a lot more separation than RU of its players? Obviously fewer guys on the pitch but also, on average, kept further back on defence in every play.

The likehood is that slap downs are fewer for these kinds of reasons rather than due to greater or lesser sanction. i.e. If slap downs are effective in last ditch defence then teams will do them whenever they can.

Problem for RU is it's a negative spectacle in an already low ball-in-play game. For union, potentially another another 3-5 minute clock-eating scrum.

Penalising it has an upside as well as downside.
Good post.
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Re: Deliberate knock on - law(s)?

Post by shanky »

kiap wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 10:57 am
towny wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 10:22 amAs AC said, we don’t see loads of slap downs in the NRL (I’m taking his word for it)
I don't watch the game much anymore but does RL have a lot more separation than RU of its players? Obviously fewer guys on the pitch but also, on average, kept further back on defence in every play.

The likehood is that slap downs are fewer for these kinds of reasons rather than due to greater or lesser sanction. i.e. If slap downs are effective in last ditch defence then teams will do them whenever they can.

Problem for RU is it's a negative spectacle in an already low ball-in-play game. For union, potentially another another 3-5 minute clock-eating scrum.

Penalising it has an upside as well as downside.
Of the tries that don’t come from kicks (about 50%), then about 70% of those are fast hands to a winger with a tight channel to the line, hence all the acrobatic finishing you see these days.
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Re: Deliberate knock on - law(s)?

Post by MungoMan »

shanky wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 10:23 am
MungoMan wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 8:59 am
Ali's Choice wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 1:31 am
shanky wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 1:27 am
Ali's Choice wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 12:44 am The deliberate knock on law is one of the worst in the game. You can deliberately strike at the ball if a player is holding the ball. You can deliberately strike at a kick. But as soon as a ball has been passed suddenly the exact same action will result in a card. Why? What great crime is this law trying to prevent?
If the only consequence was a scrum, wingers would be cynically slapping down last-passes to prevent certain tries.
What's wrong with that? Slapping down at the ball is allowed in every other facet of play, apart from directly after a ball has been passed. Ever time a player runs with the ball defenders try and slap it out of his possession. Similarly kicks can be slapped down.

It's allowed in Rugby League and you don't see wingers casually slapping away potential tries whenever they feel like it.
League is even more odd in that the RL LOTG* direct referees to penalise (‘shall be penalised’) players who deliberately knock on or pass forward. Yet this happens, to the nearest approximation, never.


*Section 10 - Knock on and forward pass, Law 1.
Rules, isn’t it?

They don’t bother with them rah rah ‘laws’.
It surprised the bejesus out of me many years back when I discovered league’s statute book was titled RL: LOTG (too much typing needed).
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Re: Deliberate knock on - law(s)?

Post by shanky »

Well, well. Did not know that
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Re: Deliberate knock on - law(s)?

Post by guy smiley »

wamberal wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 10:22 am
guy smiley wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 3:16 am Should have been a penalty and card for the Trask incident.
Rubbish. Get your head out of your orifice.
A couple of years ago I would have agreed with you. I mentioned already in this thread that I argued against the current interpretation over exactly this scenario... defender places himself in a position to catch the ball. He's there, ready,.. and Henry Muggins comes steaming in and leaps all over him to take the ball, in the process upending himself and crashing to earth like a duck trying to land on ice. How can you penalise the standing player, I argued...

I was shouted down then and the referees rulings since have supported the view... that any player who places themselves where a bloke might leap into the air to catch a ball places themselves in a dangerous position where they could expect another player to arrive... and they get penalised. Usually with a card.
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Re: Deliberate knock on - law(s)?

Post by Monk Zombie »

the law penalizes a knock forward where the offender had no realistic chance of catching the ball

what's wrong with that? it is negative/cynical.

we want to see the laws promote creative attacking rugby

edit: Law 11.4 - It is not an intentional knock-on if, in the act of trying to catch the ball, the
player knocks on provided that there was a reasonable expectation that the
player could gain possession.
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Re: Deliberate knock on - law(s)?

Post by towny »

Monk Zombie wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 12:45 pm the law penalizes a knock forward where the offender had no realistic chance of catching the ball

what's wrong with that? it is negative/cynical.

we want to see the laws promote creative attacking rugby

edit: Law 11.4 - It is not an intentional knock-on if, in the act of trying to catch the ball, the
player knocks on provided that there was a reasonable expectation that the
player could gain possession.
‘Reasonable’ may be dependent upon whether the ball bounces up or down off the hand. That word is probably the problem I have with it - it’s vague and so other directives are issued to explain what this means.

‘Offside’ is clear. Most penalties’ definitions are. This one is vague allows too much subjectivity imo.
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Re: Deliberate knock on - law(s)?

Post by Clogs »

Monk Zombie wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 12:45 pm the law penalizes a knock forward where the offender had no realistic chance of catching the ball

what's wrong with that? it is negative/cynical.

we want to see the laws promote creative attacking rugby

edit: Law 11.4 - It is not an intentional knock-on if, in the act of trying to catch the ball, the
player knocks on provided that there was a reasonable expectation that the
player could gain possession.
It results in a yellow. fvcking. card.

A scrum or maul collapse is a more heinous crime than tapping the fvcking ball forwards from an attempted intercept. I could accept a penalty for a cynical act, but send a player off? Unless in the act of attempting an intercept he fvcked the refs wife, he should never ever be sent off. Ever.
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Re: Deliberate knock on - law(s)?

Post by Zakar »

Clogs wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 8:57 am
Monk Zombie wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 12:45 pm the law penalizes a knock forward where the offender had no realistic chance of catching the ball

what's wrong with that? it is negative/cynical.

we want to see the laws promote creative attacking rugby

edit: Law 11.4 - It is not an intentional knock-on if, in the act of trying to catch the ball, the
player knocks on provided that there was a reasonable expectation that the
player could gain possession.
It results in a yellow. fvcking. card.

A scrum or maul collapse is a more heinous crime than tapping the fvcking ball forwards from an attempted intercept. I could accept a penalty for a cynical act, but send a player off? Unless in the act of attempting an intercept he fvcked the refs wife, he should never ever be sent off. Ever.
I like it.

I want to see tries being scored not a knock on and the ref whistling under the sticks.

If you had no realistic chance of intercepting, its cynical and the pass being completed would have resulted in a try, then I'm a fan of a yellow in that situation.
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Re: Deliberate knock on - law(s)?

Post by towny »

Zakar wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 9:02 am
Clogs wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 8:57 am
Monk Zombie wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 12:45 pm the law penalizes a knock forward where the offender had no realistic chance of catching the ball

what's wrong with that? it is negative/cynical.

we want to see the laws promote creative attacking rugby

edit: Law 11.4 - It is not an intentional knock-on if, in the act of trying to catch the ball, the
player knocks on provided that there was a reasonable expectation that the
player could gain possession.
It results in a yellow. fvcking. card.

A scrum or maul collapse is a more heinous crime than tapping the fvcking ball forwards from an attempted intercept. I could accept a penalty for a cynical act, but send a player off? Unless in the act of attempting an intercept he fvcked the refs wife, he should never ever be sent off. Ever.
I like it.

I want to see tries being scored not a knock on and the ref whistling under the sticks.

If you had no realistic chance of intercepting, its cynical and the pass being completed would have resulted in a try, then I'm a fan of a yellow in that situation.
Good point.

The YC isn’t for the act itself - it’s more about the intent to stop a try. If the ref checks and sees that the try wasn’t certain, then the YC stands. If it would have been a try, it’s also a PC.

I think I’ve been swayed.
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Re: Deliberate knock on - law(s)?

Post by guy smiley »

I think it's bullshit myself... in the same way that the maul is legal obstruction, this is another of Union's ridiculous Laws that penalises unduly and inconsistently.

Watching Stan's coverage the other night and the half time panel. No less a figure than Drew Mitchell agrees with me.

If he thinks it's bullshit then that's good enough for me and it should



should




be good enough for honest rugby men everywhere.
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Re: Deliberate knock on - law(s)?

Post by towny »

I like mauls. Teams just need to learn how to defend against them.
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Re: Deliberate knock on - law(s)?

Post by guy smiley »

yeah, but Drew said...
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Re: Deliberate knock on - law(s)?

Post by towny »

guy smiley wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 10:44 am yeah, but Drew said...
I’ve seen him slapping other guys on their bare arse all night. I’m not convinced he’s an oracle.
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Re: Deliberate knock on - law(s)?

Post by FairWeather_Aussie »

I played fairly high level F.I.T touch rugby until about 10 years ago. At the time it was completely legal to knock the ball down. So if there was an overlap or mismatch outside of me, I would always try to knock down the ball carriers pass. It was highly cynical but legal. And I felt wrong. I feel rugby is doing it right. If a player wants to go for a legitimate intercept that is fine. But sticking your arms a meter in front of the body with no realistic chance of catching the ball is just cynical play. It doesn’t matter whether you slap it straight down, or slap it up, the intention is still the same, to stop it from getting to the outside players.

Intercepts are taken on the chest. Not the fingertips.
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Re: Deliberate knock on - law(s)?

Post by FairWeather_Aussie »

kiwigreg369 wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 12:41 am If so I found the second half (mid 2nd half) incident where Trask jumped for high ball and he was tipped and landed dangerously. The reds player - by not jumping - I don’t think had a reasonable expectation to win the ball. I don’t actually think Reds player did anything wrong - but if the decision is based on reasonable expectations how did those outcomes occur?
I actually think that in this case, for players safety, the laws should be changed to punish a player for recklessly putting themselves in a dangerous situation. The Reds player was stationary with eyes on the ball. Trask recklessly jumped into and over him, knowing he likely would come down badly. It’s a win/win situation. If he pulls it off he gets the ball. If he doesn’t and lands badly, his team gets the ball and the reds a yellow card (thankfully not in this case). I think players recklessly endangering themselves by jumping over players should be, at least, at risk of being carded themselves.
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Re: Deliberate knock on - law(s)?

Post by towny »

Sometimes we need to back off from legislating stuff. A player being carded for looking at the ball instead of ensuring everyone around him might be safe in the event they jump to catch it is going a few steps too far.
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